Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought - Page 8
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Thread: Had to Remove a Student Today - Opinions Sought

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    No student video, cameras or cell phones are allowed on the range. I won't allow anyone to videotape. This provision is included in the agreement students must sign prior to attending.
    I understand, but I was not talking about the students video tapeing, I was just saying in case things went bad a video of the situation may have backed up your case

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly.
    The only improvement I could think of would have been to kick him out after the second violation, not the fourth. Glad to hear this was your first negative, that student's actions astound me.

    I am, by and large, a proponent of reciprocity, but if that numbnut has a concealed carry license, I'm not sure I want him carrying in my state!

  4. #73
    BC1, first, kudos to you for posting this situation as a learning experience! It was obviously a bad experience for you but you are allowing other instructors to not be victims - thank you!

    Now, just to play Devil's advocate a bit, I did notice that each time he was caught staring at the wrong end, it was a verbal warning and class continued. As a social group, a person hates being singled out from the group. Verbal warnings are not nearly as effective as something exclusionary, such as having him put his weapon down, step back, let everyone else fire, then all four of the instructors lead the idiot to the firing line and make sure he does it right. This type of specialty "help" is embarrassing and will reinforce the rule, as the Idiot will NOT want to be singled out again.

    I agree that sweeping anyone with a loaded weapon is dangerous. But I also believe that kicking someone out that is simply ignorant doesn't give them a chance to learn. Not everyone understands the hierarchy of training classes and some believe the CCW class will teach it all! All instructors have to be ready for these eventualities. A simple question at some point like, "Please place all weapons in your possession on the table whether you plan to shoot it or not.". This keeps weapons from magically appearing at odd moments. Then you pass through and unload all of them with instructions not to touch anything. You can even bag the ammo in ZipLock bags and melt them shut if you are paranoid. Then a few minutes on safe gun handling with a weapon you know is unloaded makes a deadly accident much less likely. In this way, the ignorant learn and the stupid are rooted out B.A. (Before Ammo). This takes a lot more details to be workable, but you get the idea.

    The point of all this is that, as instructors, we are supposed to teach. Stupid, like BC1s guy, can't be taught. But others need to be evaluated as to whether they are stupid or simply uneducated. Give the uneducated a chance to learn and see if there is a hole in the training plan that allows for mistakes.

  5. #74
    @TekGreg - I agree with your post and what you point out. There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity and a large part of the instructors job is to determine which is involved. The first time he did it as you say it should have been pointed out in a very effective way such as your suggestion to single him out. Just because a person makes a dumb mistake one time does not mean they cannot learn. That is why they are in class. Be sure that they know what they did wrong and why it is wrong. If you throw them out after the first violation then you have failed at your job, they are there to learn and if they already know all the rules then why do they need the class.

    For the second violation then have a discussion to determine if it is ignorance and are they trainable rather than stupid. The third violation then you can consider them in the stupid category and proceed as needed.

    Also all instructors need to evaluate the purpose of their class. Is the purpose of the class to make accurate shooters out of people who already know how to use a gun or is it to teach people how to safely use a gun. I see too many people on these boards who equate proper handling and carrying of firearms with the ability to hit a paper target in the center. A person can be an excellent marksman but if they do not know the laws of carrying in their particular state then they have no business carrying. One of the things I like about CCW courses that many states require is the "supposedly" instruction that one gets on the laws of carrying. Too many people get all their expert advice from TV and then think they know it all.

    Back to the original point. It is the job of the instructor to determine if it is ignorance or stupidity and one cannot do that with the first violation. Second is it your job to make them crack shots or safe gun handlers.

  6. #75
    I'm a little late getting into this one. My humble opinion: he should have been removed much sooner. Giving
    the money back is a good move. That takes you off the hook more so than if you had kept it.

    Anyone looking down the barrel of a loaded .45 is looking to meet his maker. And I'm sure he swept several
    others getting the gun to his eye.

  7. #76

    You Showed Remarkable Patience

    First BC1, kudos to you for showing remarkable patience. I can understand your frustration however and hope you will take your experience with this clown into future classrooms. I find that students love real time real life stories.

    But for the Grace of God, I have not had a student that bad before; or one that looked down the barrel of a loaded firearm. I have had a few get excited and sweep me or other students. I have also had more inexperienced students "forget" and stick their "booger-finger on the bang-stick" before well on target. Whether I boot them at that point is a judgement call, but there are no "second chances" with my students (unless there is one hell of a good mitigating circumstance). I once had a female student at an indoor range sweep other shooters after an ejected shell hit the side guard and bounced back to land within her "cleavage". I no longer allow women on the range without closed necked garments.

    (In my classroom, the "blue gun" is treated as if it is a loaded firearm - except that there is no way to "show clear". And, I use blue gun exercises to predict which students may be problematic on the range.)

    Finally, with your permission, I will use this story in my classroom. We all benefit as instructors when we share our experiences.
    NRA Certified Instructor, Pistol, Rifle, PPIH, RSO
    Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Intructor
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, & Florida

  8. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States
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    This student should have been stopped earlier, I think he also should have been given a psych exam. I would have given a stern warning the first time around. Second time i would have removed him from my range.

  9. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Northeastern United States.
    Posts
    64
    I think your decision was "PERFECT." If I was in your class I would have expected just that!

  10. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    What do you think? Please provide your opinions? Did we handle him correctly? In all the years of teaching this was my first experience with such a serious issue.
    I don't have a reference to cite for this. But I just took the PPOTH instructor course a couple weeks ago. Our Training Counselor said the following was the NRA prescribed method for dealing with unsafe acts during live fire:

    First time pointing firearm at self = no more live fire. Student may complete the course, but dry fire only.

    Second time pointing firearm at self = expulsion from class and student does not receive completion certificate.

    First time pointing firearm at another = expulsion from class and student does not receive completion certificate.

    MY PERSONAL OPINION: Once a student has reached the level of PPOTH, it is assumed that the student has attained a certain level of proficiency in safe operation and handling of firearms. I would apply the above rules if a student (for example) pointed the firearm at his own leg while drawing, or at his own arm by not putting weak hand to chest.

    However...if the violation was BLATANT such as looking down the barrel of a loaded firearm, I would not have given a second chance. "Here's your money back, don't let the door hit you in the ass."
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/members/phillip-gain-albums-phil-s-photos-picture3828-reciprocity-map-29jun11.JPG

  11. #80
    Pretty interesting. The general concensus seems to be warning once and boot twice.

    In short, most folks seem perfectly willing to let an individual have a second chance to perhaps kill you or someone else, maybe even himself.

    Not I. Preliminary to live fire one is not only "trained" in the operation of one's weapon but is also given a specific detailed account of how they are to conduct themselves on the firing line. ANY violation and you are gone.

    I don't "Buy into" the second chance bit. One is only "dead" once..... be damned if I am willing to give someone two chances to make it so. The safety of myself and the other bystanders are MUCH more important than hurting someone's feelings by booting them on the first offense. Sorry, Charlie.... welcome to the real world.

    GG
    Fanatics of any sort are dangerous! -GG-
    Which part of "... shall NOT be infringed..." confuses you?
    Well now, aren't WE a pair, Raggedy Man? (Thunderdome)

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