The False Security Of Laser Aiming Devices And Their General Uselessness. - Page 6
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Thread: The False Security Of Laser Aiming Devices And Their General Uselessness.

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by hyatt76 View Post
    Thank you for making me see the "other" side of using lasers..I have been torn for some time about the fact that I cannot afford a "good" laser...now I can feel better about NOT having one!
    hyatt76
    Well, IF you ever do decide to buy one, try this first. Take the money your going to spend on a laser, make sure its all in 1.00 bills, hang them in your bathroom and then use the dollar bills as toilet paper. You will get MUCH more for you money this way.

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  3. #52
    I have no laser, but could potentially see the usefulness of them for shooting in unothodox positions where getting a proper sight picture is not possible.

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by the dark View Post
    I have no laser, but could potentially see the usefulness of them for shooting in unothodox positions where getting a proper sight picture is not possible.
    I will admit, reluctantly, very reluctantly, that there are some uses for them in certain situations. I just hate the way they are advertised as a "wonder tool" to make the first time gun owner a unbeatable shooter & the gun store owners who push that belief on them. Thats my real ***** about the whole thing.

  5. #54
    There's a lot of truth in this thread and a lot of BS !!

    Here is Larry Vickers take on visible lasers and Crimson Trace lasers. Notice my Avatar ? Green eyes, green lasers. An entirely different use of night vision and lasers, but theres a reason you want to "own the night"

    Larry is a veteran of the United States Army Special Forces and 1st/SFOD-D (Delta)

    And, unless your iron sights glow at night, their practicall worthless in total dark conditions. There has to be some ambient light or visible with a torch on the weapon when you have identified your target/threat. The laser is their to augment your pistol sights at night.

    In my experience, it is better too have a tool in your tool box than not to have that tool in your tool box.

    Here: Crimson Trace Lasergrips




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Visible Lasers & CTC Lasergrips
    As many of you know I am a consultant for Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I am sure some of you will quit reading right now expecting this to be a “puff piece” talking about how great they are and not admitting any downside. Those of you in that category certainly don’t know me very well. The following is the reality of visible lasers & CTC Lasergrips according to Larry Vickers with no punches pulled.

    I used to think, like many others, that pistol lasers were a joke. Fortunately for me I have not had to eat as much crow over this topic as my good friend Ken Hackathorn but I have eaten my fair share. After giving them an honest assessment here is what it really boils down to: a laser on a pistol offers much the same advantages as red dot reflex sights on a carbine or SMG. Under stress shooting scenarios they make shooting a handgun a much easier task; they are a very useful tool in the toolbox.

    I highlight CTC lasers in my night fire portion of my handgun instruction along with night sights and white light principles and techniques. At night and in conditions of limited visibility they are nothing short of awesome; they make accurate handgun shooting easier than any other sighting system currently on the market. Don’t get me wrong, night sights and white light have their place but a visible laser at night rules. Period. Anyone who has had one of my classes or been taught by Ken Hackathorn can attest to that. They dramatically improve the shooters ability to get accurate hits at night. Of course like anything else visible lasers have pros and cons and we will highlight those in detail.

    1) Where and when to use lasers – a rule of thumb is any time you have any degree of difficulty seeing your pistol sights then a visible laser will be an advantage. For instance coming into a building from outside even during the day the laser will be of value indoors. Out in bright daylight I prefer my iron sights and find the laser a bit of a distraction. Anytime you combine low or reduced visibility with shooting on the move or unconventional shooting positions the laser is a distinct advantage. Police have found that visible lasers to be a distinct advantage while using a shield; that would fall into the unconventional shooting position category mentioned above. They are also excellent training aids for watching shooter trigger control as any movement during the trigger squeeze will show up on target. When first using the laser shooters will try and eliminate all movement and early on this can cause shooters snatching or jerking the trigger. Once you learn to accept your wobble zone (which is now more visible due to the visible laser on target) then fast and accurate shooting comes more naturally. Once mastered you can shoot faster and more accurate under low light conditions than you ever could with regular pistol sights or even night sights for that matter.

    2) Special Considerations with lasers – As a battery operated device occasionally they will need new batteries. Crimson Trace advertises a 4 hour continuous run time on their laser grips. That is sufficient for most use as I can attest; I have not had to change any batteries to date. Oil, solvents, water and dust can all play a part in making the visible laser less than 100% functional. Because of this they do occasionally need maintenance and cleaning. I know that is a shocker to many but it is probably a good idea once in awhile to make sure your pistol is properly cleaned, lubricated, and maintained. That would include your visible laser aiming device. I am a believer in having your laser separate from your white light for a couple reasons. You will always have an enhanced night fighting capability even when your white light is removed and you can have serious issues with retaining zero depending on the light/laser mounting system. For these reasons and others I prefer Crimson Trace Lasergrips over accessory rail mounted light/laser units. One downside is CTC does not make Lasergrips for every service pistol on the market so depending on your gun you may not have an option.

    3) Durability and reliability – CTC has sold thousands of M9 Beretta Laser Grips to the US Military. They have been received with overwhelming positive feedback. Remember the M9 does not even have night sights so the Lasergrips add a low light capability that simply did not exist before. This is a huge advantage and many of the troops appreciate it. The visible laser is also very useful for crowd control as the “red dot” seems to cross all language and cultural barriers. As we know combat is the ultimate test bed and CTC has taken lessons learned in the sandbox and is moving forward with a true milspec M9 Lasergrip: water and dust proof. It is being developed as this is written so it is too soon to project a date when they will be available.

    My personal favorite CTC Lasergrips are the S&W J frame versions (every J frame on the planet should have them; it is nothing short of a revolutionary shooting aid on that gun), the model 401 M1911 version, and the M9 Beretta Lasergrips. I use and endorse all three of these. That is not to say these are the only ones worth using just that they are my favorites. Another little trick is to send the plastic Lasergrips to David Bowie (not the singer) at www.bowietacticalconcepts.com for his superb stippling. This makes them less slippery and because of the way Dave stipples them it actually enhances the appearance of the grips. I was the first to start this trend with David and I would not use a set without it. Highly recommended.

    I will close this by saying if you have not tried a visible laser you should. Especially if CTC makes a pair of Lasergrips for your favorite blaster. Remember they are meant to augment the standard pistol sights, not replace them. They are simply another tool in the tool box.
    "When a government robs Peter to pay Paul it will alway's have the support of Paul" George Bernard Shaw

  6. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ropadope View Post
    There's a lot of truth in this thread and a lot of BS !!

    Here is Larry Vickers take on visible lasers and Crimson Trace lasers. Notice my Avatar ? Green eyes, green lasers. An entirely different use of night vision and lasers, but theres a reason you want to "own the night"

    [/I][/B]
    You mean, you want to become a huge target at night with a big flashing billboard over your head saying "Here I am"? Traipsing around with a laser blaring in the middle of the night doesn't make you have a tactical advantage. Period. No offense but I will stick with something that doesn't paint a great big target on me at night. The only way that works is if its infrared laser visible only through a scope, then we are talking about a completely different scenario using different types of equipment.

    You seriously can't believe a laser at night gives you a tactical advantage, you were just screwing with us right?

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by NFTATraining View Post
    You mean, you want to become a huge target at night with a big flashing billboard over your head saying "Here I am"? Traipsing around with a laser blaring in the middle of the night doesn't make you have a tactical advantage. Period. No offense but I will stick with something that doesn't paint a great big target on me at night. The only way that works is if its infrared laser visible only through a scope, then we are talking about a completely different scenario using different types of equipment.

    You seriously can't believe a laser at night gives you a tactical advantage, you were just screwing with us right?
    Did you not read Larry's article provided in my last post ? Do you have his credentials ?

    And, you quoted me on my use of the IR laser and NODS at night. Duh, it's a huge advantage over the bad guy's.

    Again, read Larry's article on the use of the visible laser. If you don't know who Larry Vickers is then I'm afraid I wouldn't want to take any of your classes. We are on two different levels of combat shooting experience.

    I won't be "trapsing" around at night without a laser and torch. And, I'm not going to be in the "constantly on" position with either the laser or the torch. You have your opinions, and I have mine. We are talking two different approaches to gun fighting at night and in low light conditions. I don't care what or who you claim to be in the firearms/Tactical training industry.

    Yes, both a laser and a torch are a huge advantage at night, when used sparingly and appropriately.
    "When a government robs Peter to pay Paul it will alway's have the support of Paul" George Bernard Shaw

  8. #57
    Is this you Brian ??

    Folks, this an example of how Not tp handle and fire and AR15 platform rifle and also how NOT to handle and fire a pistol in a combative situation. Notice the lack of proper body mechanics, lack of proper muzzle control and never use the lower reciever mag well for off hand placement.

    This is a terrible example of how to shoot passing it's self off as proper.



    "When a government robs Peter to pay Paul it will alway's have the support of Paul" George Bernard Shaw

  9. #58
    Oh my god. Your an idiot. I mean, seriously, your an idiot. First off, either A. your tactics and training are so damn out dated its not funny, or B. you have NO clue as to what the hell is going on. You never grip the mag well? Are you f'ing serious? Did you actually just post that? Holy *****! Dude, several companies actually make a GRIP for the AR-15 PLATFORM TO GRIP THE MAG WELL. Body Mechanics? Muzzle Control? Are you just throwing terms out there, or do you even know the definitions for what you are saying? But, I guess I shouldn't be too shocked from your prior post. Jesus god man get a clue. I am not sure what you did in the military, but it wasn't with firearms. Next time you try to google something to make someone look bad, you might want to read more than the first search result. Your another INTERNET commando. Good for you. Thanks for posting the videos!

  10. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Lets keep it civilized guys. Gripping the mag well is personal preference. Everyone grips a rifle differently, because we are all different (tall, short, long arms, short arms, big/small hands, combos of all the above). Though I believe gripping as far forward and high on the barrel (magpul afg) suits me, not everyone trains that.

  11. #60
    Your justifying the off hand use of the magwell due to the fact that some silly plactics company makes a grip for it ?? Yeah, seen em, their simply exploiting a poor choice of off hand placement on the part of the shooters that don't know any better.

    NFTA, your a tool.

    Folks, here is a dear friend of mine that served with the SEAL Teams. Let me know who, from the two videos that I have posted, who you would want as your instructor on carbine. Notice Jeffs body mechanics, off hand placement with a foregrip, muzzle controle, trigger control, and most importantly he is not fireing shots during movement from one shooting position to the other. This is my last post here. I'm done with NFTA dispensing his advice with what appears to be little or no real training. And, in this video Jeff is stressing and keeping an zone of shot placement within 8" on each target.

    Also NFTA, you should be aware that many on this board probably have more combat and high threat envirement shooting experience than you do and years of weapons experience. Do not come on this board and think that all of us are somehow novices at the prospect of our shooting skills. Thus far you have dispensed some really bad advice, IMNSHO.

    Also notice Jeffs prone position. Look closely and your notice that he's incorporating a tri-pod or bladed effect using both elbows and the magazine. on the ground also, for proper prone unsupported shooting.

    NFTA. Don't know where you have recieved your training, or should I say lack there of, but someone has done you a disservice.



    "When a government robs Peter to pay Paul it will alway's have the support of Paul" George Bernard Shaw

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