How much expereince is enough? - Page 3
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Thread: How much expereince is enough?

  1. #21
    CR is the only one who has it right. I have ZERO LE or Military experience and I do quite well as an instructor. I look for folks who DO NOT have military or LE experience when I seek further training. Here is the problem with Military and LEO training. Instructors spend more time instilling confidence and a sense of trust in their method than they do actually teaching the core fundamentals of shooting. LEO qualifications differ from state to state, but the bar is very low for qualifying, for instructor rating, etc. Look up PPC. Look up GLOCK matches. Why is there a separate category for LEOs in GLOCK matches? Why do very few LEOs compete in USPSA or IDPA?

    I went to Law enforcement school two years ago. The firearms instructors were all ex military, all SWAT members. You have to score 94% or better to be considered for SWAT or instructor school. I scored 98% with a brand new gun I hadn't shot more than 30 rounds through. I bought a new GLOCK 17 because they wouldn't let me qualify with my 1911. I don't want to start a gun bashing session, but the sights alone on a factory GLOCK give me a headache. I dropped two whole shots ( 5 points apiece ) for not shooting enough rounds on one course of fire, and for shooting late and admitting it on another . The only time I "missed" I got a 4 point hit instead of a 5. I could have easily had 100% with a gun I had shot tens of thousands of rounds through. I am only a fair USPSA competitor. To be fair, the last march I shot an LEO gave us all a spanking, but not by much. Some PO lice CAN shoot. Just not too many. Military or LE is the last place I would look for training, or for a trainer.

    Second thing, there are no magic beans, and if there were, military and LE would be the last place you would see them. Competitors INVENT new, better ways to do things. Military and LE get dragged, kicking and screaming into the light last of all. Shooting skills are very basic. You need some good, solid, basic instruction from an instructor who actually can perform, and then you need LOTS of practice both as a shooter and an instructor. Like CR said, It won't do you any good to take a class from someone who is very talented but can't communicate.

    Last thing. It is a lot easier to find a virgin in a brothel than it is to find a Navy cook in a bar, or on a website advertising firearms instruction. I doubt there s anyone in the Army anymore who isn't a Special forces firearms instructor. Well, maybe there are some secret squirrel types, you know, the hush hush, I could tell you but I would have to kill you types. It has gotten so bad that the NAVY SEALS have a website that shows who is who in SEALS. It seems even one GOVERNOR wasn't REALLY a SEAL, but a UDT man. UDT guys deserve the upmost respect, too, but a SEAL they are not. " Well, I trained with the SEALS, I took SEAL training"..I trained with a DELTA FORCE dude one time, but that doesn't make my fat backside DELTA FORCE. And, if you manage to sift through all the outright liars and find a real Special forces operator, you will likely be underwhelmed. I have had them in class, and they are O.K., but why don't they win USPSA or IDPA matches?

    Learn the basics very well, and start teaching ASAP. Learn stuff at the next level, and start teaching that. Compete, hunt, and take additional training, but look more for someone who has taught or coached folks who are top flight competitors. Once you learn the basis and can perform them well, you really need a coach more than an instructor who has " magic beans" or some new method.

    I shoot around 100 rounds a day and I try to dry fire half hour to one hour a day. I practice the stuff I am no good at, like loading n the move and transitioning from target to target. I study cases of CIVILIAN self defense. It should be a crime to talk to CIVILIANS about military of LEO use of force. Only an idiot would pay a Jet mechanic to work on a lawn mower, and vice versa. I do my best to instruct, somewhere, on something, every week. Pepper spray, Hunter safety, Legal updates on law changes, reloading, something.

    I could go on and on, but that is what works for me. Conventional wisdom usually makes you end up like 80% -90% of others in any business ; broke and out of business.

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  3. #22
    docmagnum57,

    Comparing a NAVY SEAL or a LEO to a Grand Master in USPSA is like comparing a a podiatrist to a neurosurgeon. All medical doctors are doctors but than they have specialties, I wouldn't want a podiatrist doing brain surgery on a loved one just because he was a medical doctor.

    I will agree with you that there is a high percentage of LEOs that are not very good shooters but you seem to not realize that being a good police officer does not mean they have to be a Grand Master in USPSA and winning state matches. Do you think a J.J Racaza or Todd Jeret would be better police officers because they are two of the best shooters in the world? I also trained with some SEALS and Delta operators in the past and they also were not world class marksmen or Grand Masters in USPC but just because I normally win matches at my gun club doesn't mean I would be a better SEAL or DELTA operator than them.

    I will agree with you that the PPC (practical pistol course) is very basic and just about anyone should be able to pass it but you again miss the point of the basic pistol course of fire for law enforcement officers. A great SWAT officer or detective doesn't have to hit the 5 ring every time to complete his or her mission. It seemed to me after reading your post you had a negative feeling against law enforcement officers and military personal because you are better with a weapon than most of them (or you say you are). LEOs, military, SEALS, Delta, etc. train for their particular job and most of them do it well. Do I think that every Federal Air Marshal can hit their intended target every time on the range when they have to qualify every 3 months? NO I do not but there are tons of other things that come into play with their particular mission.

    One time I told a federal law enforcement firearm instructor after I scored a perfect 300 on the PPC "Wow, and I am not even a firearm instructor". A few hours later this same instructor was my sparing instructor for ground tactics and he beat the crap out of me. I learned that day that just because I was a better marksman doesn't mean I am top dog in every aspect of my job.

    When was the last time you were shot at? The last time I was at a USPSA match I do not remember the target shooting back at me. When was the last time you ran 6 blocks after a suspect and than had to draw you weapon and try and hold you sights steady on the suspect, trying to follow the use of force continuum, looking at your backstop of civilians, calling in your location, following your agency policies, covering your partner, etc. Just because you are a better marksman or firearm instructor doesn't mean you could (and you are not) be a better LEO, military personal, DELTA operator, Special forces soldier, EOD specialist or even a Army cook. Have a little respect for every profession and just to remind you dogmagnum57, USPSA/IPSC matches are just a sport.




    Every specialty, job, mission, weapons system, etc has a different objective and they can not be compared to each other. "Apples and Oranges".

  4. #23
    walknitinfear,

    I apologize. First, I must have sounded like I know everything, even though I admitted I am only a fair shooter. Second, I must have sounded like I am disparaging of folks who put their life on the line to protect us. Even though I stated some LEOs and military folks can shoot quite well. Even though I admitted one LEO gave our whole club a spanking at a recent match. My English is just not what is should be, I guess.

    Somehow I must have come across like a know it all. Sorry. It happens all the time.

    My advice to Ricky Bobby is sound advice advice. He should get really good at basics, and then start teaching what he DOES KNOW. He doesn't need to write tickets for 30 years and pretend he is qualified to teach firearms. I don't think being a spec ops warrior would make him better qualified to teach NRA basic pistol to little old ladies. Carrying packs up and down hills, blowing up bridges, and assassinating Al queda chiefs really is not a good way to learn how to teach granny how to shoot her J frame well enough to keep a thug from taking her money and her life at the 7 eleven in Topeka, Kansas.

    I thought I made it clear instructing is a specialized skill set. It is hard to convey basic information to some people. You have to learn how to get the point across. Learn the basics, and then learn to teach them. I stand by that. Or, like I say, peel potatoes in the mess hall for 2o years, get your retirement check, and hang out your shingle. "Firearms instructor, 20 years Military experience."

    The only way to get good at shooting is to shoot. The only way to get good at instructing is to instruct. Get the basics down right, and go for it. If you have to start with home firearms safety at the senior center, GO FOR IT.

    Again, sorry to any I may have offended.

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    central illinois
    Posts
    16
    An Instructor needs to be knowledgeable, confident and able to analyze student problems, and provide them a solution.

  6. Hey Ricky,

    A lot of good responses here. Definitely many points of view. I'll give you mine. I have no LEO or Military experience. I am a competitive USPSA, IDPA, and 3-Gun shooter. I'm also NRA certified in many disciplines. I don't think it's how many classes you take. For me it was showing others how to shoot. Once I received positive feedback from several people that I was a good teacher, I decided to take it a little more seriously. I had no idea how much I would enjoy teaching. I guess my advice is, don't quit your day job (I haven't), but if you want to get into instruction, take some classes and see how it goes. Showing someone what they're doing wrong is not as easy as it sounds unless you have a lot of experience.

    If I had LEO or military experience, I think it would only augment my current skill set. If I was LEO I think USPSA or 3-Gun would augment my skill set. It's all shooting and they all have advantages and drawbacks. I wouldn't teach a tactical carbine class, but I can teach the heck out of a USPSA or pistol class. Find a discipline you enjoy and go with it. Like many have said here, you'll never stop learning. I still take classes.

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