The REAL Deal! WARNING: VERY Graphic! Let it burn in and learn from it! - Page 9
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Thread: The REAL Deal! WARNING: VERY Graphic! Let it burn in and learn from it!

  1. #81
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    All criminal corrections have multitudinous facets to it. There's the debt to society facet. The criminal has done damage and that damage must be paid for in loss of rights/priviledges. There's the anti-recidivism facet. The criminal has done something bad, something which most other civil members of society do not do. There must be a punishment sufficient to cement in the criminal's mind the need to not do that again. There's the protection of society facet. Even if they can never again be trusted in society, they can still be kept locked away, and so guarantee that there will be no recidivism, since there will never again be an opportunity to recidivise. (that a word?)

    And then, there is the revenge facet. It's a very real need in even modern criminal corrections that the aggrieved party of a criminal's criminality feel that justice has been done. There's a reason we stopped having Sheriffs deputizing posses and riding out into the hinterlands to hang the murderin', theivin' bastiches. It regularized the machinery of finding the truth, making it known, and meeting out justice, but in making the law fair, it also started to remove the justice from the purview of the people who were harmed in the first place.

    It was regularized partially to keep the aggrieved from taking up arms on their own and heading out to find them scoundrels what kilt mah pa. If we want to maintain that fasçade of civilization and prevent it from slipping, we're gonna hafta get back in touch with that sense of revenge, the sense in the minds of the aggrieved that the criminal who caused them harm got what was coming to them. That is something that is sorely lacking in America's legal system today.

    When your rapist gets off with probation, it's a real serious motivator to get a gun and hunt the bastard down. When your brother goes up on a pot possession charge for more years than you see murderers getting, your respect for the rule of law slips that much more.

    I'll take JJFlash and Marissa's scenario and run with it. Let's say I hear the screams, I hear the gun shot. I immediately leap to condition red and draw my sidearm and kick in the door. In condition red, I would have looked around and noted whether there was anyone there to either help or hinder me, and so I would know the presence or absence of witnesses.

    At the moment I draw down on the BG, I have to assess not only him, but the room. If he has a gun in his hand and is bring it up at me, I don't really care if the victim was raped or killed or may even still be alive and in need of medical attention. At that point, my own survival is paramount, and the BG dies double-tap style.

    Let's say he has a gun, but sees my gun pointed at him and knows to keep his gun pointed down. Here, it still doesn't matter if the victim needs urgent attention, because I still can't provide it while the BG is in the room and armed.

    I could, on the basis of needing to attend to the victim, and not being able to do so while the BG was armed or conscious in the same room, dispatch him without waiting for him to raise his weapon. If there are no witnesses, I can claim he did try to shoot me and be believed. If there is, I can attempt to prevail upon them that it was still the right thing to do based on my reasoning. This presupposes a victim who's still alive and could be helped but for the BG's presence, so I would also be attempting to split my attention between him and the victim to visually assess the victim's level of helplessness, something I could not do while he was armed.

    Now, let's say the BG disarms himself or was not armed in the first place. Now, my options are a little more varied. I can keep him covered by the barrel of my sidearm while I look over the victim. There are lots of scenarios that could be playing themselves out, and I have to account for all imaginable ones. Maybe the gun was a fake and there's a guy in the closet filming a college film class scene and the victim isn't a victim and the BG isn't a BG. In this case, I'd have a hard time justifying plugging the BG in order to save the victim who wasn't in jeopardy. It could be that the victim is only mildly wounded and ambulatory, in which case I can try to send her out of the room to get more help. It could be that she's DOA in which case my situation is largely the same as previously, only I haven't been able to send someone for help.

    At this point, my moral compass would not really let me plug him on general principles, not even if he started mouthing off. Now, if he made a quick move, such as for the door or fire escape, I could fire to prevent the escape of a known felon, prevailing law be damned. Likewise if he lunged for me. All of these movements on the part of the BG would present his body to me in rather singular attitudes.

    Maybe it's from watching too much CSI-type shows, but I would want the ME's report to be able to state conclusively that I fired in self defense and did not fire into the BG's back. This is only when it's morally ambiguous, you see. I have no moral qualms about plugging a rapist in the back if he's on top of a squealing girl yelling, "Stop it! Gettoff! You're hurting me!" At that point, my only concern is to not hit the rape victim and to not let the BG's dead body lay on top of her, crushing her with his weight any longer than absolutely necessary, jumping in to pull his dead weight off of her and to the floor as quickly as possible. Likewise, if I saw a murder actually happen, in the immediate aftermath, I'm just pulling and aiming center of mass. I'm not giving the BG the opportunity to surrender if I'm the witness.

    Now, the situation is I didn't witness the crime, there's no one in the room for me to help and the BG's not armed. He can sit there giving me a profile for a shot that would be clear that I executed him all day long while he goads and slings insults at me, but I'm just holding him for the police.

    That's because I'm not (yet) one of those people who is so fed up with the state of the criminal justice system that I have no confidence that justice will be done for the BG's victim.

    That is where my schpiel about revenge as an aspect of justice above comes in. See, if I didn't have any confidence in the criminal justice system to do justice upon this BG, then the onus of meeting out that justice will necessarily fall to me, a task I am more than capable of completing. He can make threats against me, my family, my pets of what he's going to do to us when he inevitably gets out, but as long as I have confidence in the system, I'll let the system handle it.

    If I had no confidence in the system, as a private person with a gun who had just come upon a crime scene, bad things are going to happen, and it'll just be a roll of the dice whether the forensics (squints) put together a case against me with a corrupt DA and a jury full of know-nothings whether I'm punished for that lack of confidence.
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by kengrubb View Post
    Deputy Dinkheller was 22 years old, and while I read that he'd been with the Sheriff's Office for 4 years, he obviously had not been working as an armed deputy for 4 years.

    The level of training one receives is going to vary a lot from one place to the next, and small rural areas like Lauren's County, Georgia likely aren't going to get 6 months in the police academy.

    There are just 20 officers in the Patrol Division for a county that's 825 square miles.
    Patrol Divison

    Deputy Dinkheller should have been firing much earlier. It's hard to see the rifle on the video, but it's obvious the Deputy sees the rifle well before the shooting starts.

    This and other dashboard camera videos have been used in police training.

    I wouldn't necessarily shoot someone for rushing me, but I'd danged sure get command of the situation. Once words fail, then OC, Taser, ASP, or whatever it takes.

    I see a gun, and he doesn't drop it after being commanded to drop it, time to shoot.
    Actually Georgia has very good public safety training in a central location. The state even pays for it.

  4. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSmithnotTMD View Post
    Actually Georgia has very good public safety training in a central location. The state even pays for it.
    It wasn't good enough for this guy, I guess. I understand that being under fire is quite different than training at a facility, but if I'm LE (and I'm not), I'm going to develop the scenarios of WHEN I'm going to employ lethal force and then I'm going to work on the MINDSET which will be necessary to use it. Tragically, it seems this young LEO had not been schooled properly, in this regard.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    Well, let me go ahead and put this out there:

    I oppose the death penalty.

    While I agree that there are lots of people who deserve to die for what they have done, I do not believe that justice for society will ever be served by killing someone. Sure, if someone commits a horrible act of violence against me or someone I love, then I will want them killed. However, after reading the accounts of several survivors of victims whose killers eventually got death, there seems to be little closure or satisfaction in the act.

    Add to that the many, many cases of wrongfully convicted people on death row who are now being released because DNA evidence proves that it WAS NOT THEM who committed the crime. Can you imagine the guilt that you must live with if you pressed for the death of an innocent person?

    From a strictly monetary standpoint, actually putting a convict to death is several times more expensive than life imprisonment.

    In this particular case, it is obvious that the killer maliciously and with forethought killed the LEO. However, there are some good examples of why he might be spared the death penalty. I say take him out of society for the rest of his life.

    I also believe that prisoners who wish to commit suicide be allowed to do so.

    FLAME ON!

    Maybe then YOU should pay for the upkeep of the murdering scum whose lives YOU wish to spare! Why don't YOU take that rhetoric to his widow! There are NO good examples of why his miserable life should be spared oh and BTW, he IS maggot food now as Florida hates cop killers as much as Texas does! 'YOU sure YOU are in the right forum? YOUR type makes me extrememly irate!
    An ARMED individual is a CITIZEN! ...An UNARMED individual is a SUBJECT!

  6. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by American ME! View Post
    Maybe then YOU should pay for the upkeep of the murdering scum whose lives YOU wish to spare! Why don't YOU take that rhetoric to his widow! There are NO good examples of why his miserable life should be spared oh and BTW, he IS maggot food now as Florida hates cop killers as much as Texas does! 'YOU sure YOU are in the right forum? YOUR type makes me extrememly irate!
    Take it easy, AmME. It's just a difference of opinion. There is room for it on this site.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  7. #86
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    Cool American Me? And are you the only one with a first amendment right to free speech?

    Quote Originally Posted by American ME! View Post
    Maybe then YOU should pay for the upkeep of the murdering scum whose lives YOU wish to spare! Why don't YOU take that rhetoric to his widow! There are NO good examples of why his miserable life should be spared oh and BTW, he IS maggot food now as Florida hates cop killers as much as Texas does! 'YOU sure YOU are in the right forum? YOUR type makes me extrememly irate!


    Well, to address your first "point", I actually AM paying for the upkeep of the murdering scum, as are you and every other taxpayer.


    And, yes, I am quite sure that I am in the right place. This forum is like a cozy little seaside cottage that I get to relax in for a few minutes every day. I'll even save a space for you here in the hot tub, AmMe. I'm sure that your temper will help heat the water up just fine.


    Also, if you could pin down my "type", you know, the one that makes you so irate, I would certainly appreciate it if you let me know. I haven't been able to definitively pitch my philosophical tent in any "type"s camp. I would appreciate a little direction to my people!
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  8. Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    It wasn't good enough for this guy, I guess. I understand that being under fire is quite different than training at a facility, but if I'm LE (and I'm not), I'm going to develop the scenarios of WHEN I'm going to employ lethal force and then I'm going to work on the MINDSET which will be necessary to use it. Tragically, it seems this young LEO had not been schooled properly, in this regard.
    Never said he went to it. After all it's never gonna happen to you right.

    I should have ponted out they all seem to be standard LEO training rather than fight-oriented courses.

    You're right about mindset. He might have had one of those moments where he simply didn't understand what was happening to him. There's a ton of discussion about how "modern, civilized people" simply don't think anyone would want to hurt them.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    And, yes, I am quite sure that I am in the right place. This forum is like a cozy little seaside cottage that I get to relax in for a few minutes every day. I'll even save a space for you here in the hot tub, AmMe. I'm sure that your temper will help heat the water up just fine.
    Wait a minute! You have a hot tub over there? I need to see the manager.

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSmithnotTMD View Post
    Wait a minute! You have a hot tub over there? I need to see the manager.
    It is just PAST the range berm.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    It is just PAST the range berm.
    I knew I should have got a map.

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