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Thread: Now THIS is a LEO encounter!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegadelawdawg View Post
    WRONG, ever heard of Terry vs Ohio. He was absolutely within his rights to stop and frisk. Law also requires you to carry photo ID when carrying, CC or OC. Officer was right on, just not as tactical as he should have been.
    Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)

    "A search for weapons in the absence of probable cause to arrest, however, must, like any other search, be strictly circumscribed by the exigencies which justify its initiation"

    "Our evaluation of the proper balance that has to be struck in this type of case leads us to conclude that there must be a narrowly drawn authority to permit a reasonable search for weapons for the protection of the police officer, where he has reason to believe that he is dealing with an armed and dangerous individual, regardless of whether he has probable cause to arrest the individual for a crime. The officer need not be absolutely certain that the individual is armed; the issue is whether a reasonably prudent man in the circumstances would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger."

    "We conclude that the revolver seized from Terry was properly admitted in evidence against him. At the time he seized petitioner and searched him for weapons, Officer McFadden had reasonable grounds to believe that petitioner was armed and dangerous, and it was necessary for the protection of himself and others to take swift measures to discover the true facts and neutralize the threat of harm if it materialized."

    Terry was already acting strangely and the LEO in this case knew from his experience that Terry was about to commit a crime. You have to remember that Terry was illegally carrying a concealed firearm and was padded down for weapons for other criminal like behavior, not the legal open carry of a weapon.

    "I would, however, make explicit what I think is implicit in affirmance on the present facts. Officer McFadden's right to interrupt Terry's freedom of movement and invade his privacy arose only because circumstances warranted forcing an encounter with Terry in an effort to prevent or investigate a crime. Once that forced encounter was justified, however, the officer's right to take suitable measures for his own safely followed automatically."

    "There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation. In my view, it is temporary detention, warranted by the circumstances, which chiefly justifies the protective frisk for weapons. Perhaps the frisk itself, where proper, will have beneficial results whether questions are asked or not. If weapons are found, an arrest will follow."

    This last determination automatically assumes that weapons are being carried illegally, he does not include legally carried weapons for the obvious reasons.

    "The infringement on personal liberty of any 'seizure' of a person can only be 'reasonable' under the Fourth Amendment if we require the police to possess 'probable cause' before they seize him. Only that line draws a meaningful distinction between an officer's mere inkling and the presence of facts within the officer's personal knowledge which would convince a reasonable man that the person seized has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a particular crime."

    So as I said before, the mere act of legally carrying a weapon IS NOT grounds for a Terry stop, other aggravating factors must be present.

    Also whether one must carry photo ID while possessing a firearm is dependent on state law. My state for instance, does not have a "stop and ID" statute, i.e. I do not have to carry ID when on foot and carrying my firearm. I also have the ideology that I will ID myself because I do appreciate what LEOs have to do on a daily basis and I do not feel it is a slight to my rights, although if one was being a prick(the one in this story was not), he is not getting it.


    Note: The text size increase was only to separate my text from that of the terry case, it kinda looks like im shouting lol.
    One must be wary of the mentality creating the problem or the law creating the crime.

    I love America and the Constitution, if you don't then get out!

  2.   
  3. I think if carrying a weapon you should be required to show an ID/permit to any LEO upon them asking for it. If not then what is to stop a bad guy from strapping on a gun and then spouting off some legal BS about how the cop has no right to check his ID? People need to get over themselves and realize that most officers have nothing against legally armed citizens. They are just trying to do a job and go home at the end of the day.

  4. #43
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    My question would be if open carry is legal, stopping an individual for open carry with no other probable cause would be an issue, this being CA officer was most likely responding to man with gun. Texas as of now is concealed carry only and we hope to change. PS: Great Stop, Great Officer, well informed wish there were more like him.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mule659 View Post
    I think if carrying a weapon you should be required to show an ID/permit to any LEO upon them asking for it. If not then what is to stop a bad guy from strapping on a gun and then spouting off some legal BS about how the cop has no right to check his ID? People need to get over themselves and realize that most officers have nothing against legally armed citizens. They are just trying to do a job and go home at the end of the day.
    Great first post, not....In my state OC is legal without a permit. Why should I be hassled just because I am conducting myself in a lawfull manner?

    You said "what is to stop a bad guy from strapping on a weapon?". Well for one bad guys usually keep a weapn concealed until they are ready to use it. Secondly, how is an ID/permit check going to stop someone from doing harm when they are bent on doing harm anyway?

    That said I don't see anything wrong with LE making a consentual encounter to get a "feel" for someone. I draw the line at being forced to provide papers for legal activity though.

    Watching the video it looked like the officer acted within law. I conclude this based on my limited knowledge of CA law. Since only unloaded open carry is legal in CA, an officer is allowed to stop and temporarily disarm a person to verify the weapon is unloaded.
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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    Hate to break it to you but California law provides that an officer can do exactly that. In Califorina it is illegal to to openly carry a loaded firearm and the law also allows the police to inspect your firearm to ensure that you are in compliance W/ that statute.

    I don't like it but it is the law
    Everything up to the Terry (pat down) and everything after it was done right.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mule659 View Post
    I think if carrying a weapon you should be required to show an ID/permit to any LEO upon them asking for it. If not then what is to stop a bad guy from strapping on a gun and then spouting off some legal BS about how the cop has no right to check his ID? People need to get over themselves and realize that most officers have nothing against legally armed citizens. They are just trying to do a job and go home at the end of the day.
    The BG does not want any attention, so they will not OC. California is not a stop and ID state, so the OC person in the video is 100% correct that he does not have to show it. I OC (and have been for about 18 months now) in that time I have had two PC 12031e (or an “E Check” as I have heard it called). If the officer is cool with me like this one was, I would have no issue showing ID... I would even let him run the serial number if he asks first (it is not legal for him continue detainment for a SN Check without consent, as there was NO Probable Cause). Most of the LEO's I know do not feel they are above the law, but I have seen/met some who think otherwise. All I ask is that you treat me like a citizen, not a criminal (and don't violate my civil rights!).
    Last edited by Raidenko; 01-28-2011 at 02:19 AM. Reason: Fix SN Check statement

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabrera View Post
    In California does the law allow you to carry ammo?
    I mean the gun can be OC if unloaded, but can you carry bullets in your pocket for it?
    The ammo can be in a mag not attached to the weapon. I keep my mags on the other hip (it is not 100% clear to me if the mags can be concealed or not, so I treat it the same as the weapon). I drill at the range on loading, so that if I need it, I remember what I have to do in a stressful situation.

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by reluctantdefense View Post
    I really dont know why u would carry a unloaded weapon unless you were looking for attention. It is his right but I feel concealed carry 90 percent of the time is the way to go GOD BLESS AMERICA
    If CCW issue was standard across California, then more people would do so. The fact is that California does not have a cut and dry equal issue policy, nor does the CLEO in any County/City have to issue a permit even if the applicant meets every condition of PC 12050. I OC, because at this time in my county… that is my only legal option. I make sure that I practice/train myself to get a mag into the well and chamber a round as fast as possible, so that I am prepared in the event I have to draw my weapon. I am down to about 4 or 5 seconds now...

  10. #49
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    FYI: I just posted a positive comment to the Oceanside Police Dept email on the friendly well infromed officer shown in video, while I disagreed with CA carry and noted same in email, I feel a positive response from honest gun carrying public my get some change to take place for carry in every state.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Great first post, not....In my state OC is legal without a permit. Why should I be hassled just because I am conducting myself in a lawfull manner?

    You said "what is to stop a bad guy from strapping on a weapon?". Well for one bad guys usually keep a weapn concealed until they are ready to use it. Secondly, how is an ID/permit check going to stop someone from doing harm when they are bent on doing harm anyway?

    That said I don't see anything wrong with LE making a consentual encounter to get a "feel" for someone. I draw the line at being forced to provide papers for legal activity though.

    Watching the video it looked like the officer acted within law. I conclude this based on my limited knowledge of CA law. Since only unloaded open carry is legal in CA, an officer is allowed to stop and temporarily disarm a person to verify the weapon is unloaded.
    Well thanks for you opinion on my post, as if I care. Now, keyword in your satement being bad guys "usually" keep their weapon concealed. Yes I know they don't want to bring attention to themselves, but if they know they they can just strap on a gun and not legally be checked, then score one for them. Why is it such a big deal to show a permit or an ID for a quick check if you're carrying a gun? If someone doesn't want to be checked then they should get off their lazy ***** and get a CCL ( in areas where it's available ) I am all for people legally carrying and having a right to defend themselves, believe me I love the fact that I can have my firearm to defend myself. I carry every day, everywhere I legally can. I just don't understand why anyone wants to open carry. Is it to make you look cool? I'd rather people not know I have a gun, it keeps everyone at ease that way and I can still defend myself and my family if necessary. I'm not into carrying to look "cool" or "tactical", I'm do it for safety and to stay alive. If I'm walking around town and see some guy with a gun strapped to his waste that is not in some sort of uniform or displaying a badge, I am automatically on the defensive. Granted, he is probably a law abiding guy...but what if he's not? I don't live in a fantasy world where everyone walking around town with a gun is a good guy, I live in a world where there is a guy with a gun that I don't know, therefor I do not trust that he does not wish to shoot me.

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