OC confronted by police - Page 5
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 74

Thread: OC confronted by police

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Tallahassee Florida
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    As a person who believes in the strict construction view of the constitution (remember, I didn't say OC should be illegal, I said I support the right but didn't believe it was a good tactical strategy) I'm interested in the point of view (for research pursposes) of those on this list. So a quick poll if you please...

    If someone murdered your child would you support his constitutional right upon release from prison to bear arms or do you think he should forfeit that right? Understanding of course that the death penalty forfeits that right.

    Do you believe you presently have a first amendment right to freedom of speech. Can you freely exercise that right without risk of criminal charges? Do you believe the first amendment gives you the right to say anything you want, anywhere at any time? For example, can you be asked for ID for exercising your first amendment right at a shopping mall?
    Rather that participate in your attempt to sidetrack the discussion how about you show us where in New York law that you are required to carry identification?

    "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB

  2.   
  3. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&P40 View Post
    Let me just say I did not add myself to the "band of trolls" nor did I ask to be added to the list, it was done by a third party without my knowledge!

    As a father of two girls and another child due in August, my wife and I have already talked about the issue of firearms being used on our children. We both have the point of view (much the same as the girls dad from the AZ shooting) if any of our children (god forbid!!) was to be shot and killed by a BG with a firearm we would not forsake all firearms/owners of them. We would blame the madman/woman/mental health system(if they had been know to been a nut) behind the firearm for taking our child!

    In this day and age when you can be charged with a felony for repeated jaywalking, I think we need to take another look at the loss of gun rights over a felony charge.

    For non violent felony charges I do not support removing that person gun rights for LIFE! Tax evasion, parking tickets and other crimes where the only victim is the government/city government are not reasons enough to remove that persons rights.

    I would even be open to letting them earn that right to own firearms back, after so many years of being a productive member of society.

    As for free speech, as the supreme court recently showed it does cover ones right to say whatever they want when they want. If a group of whack jobs can stand at a fallen service members burial and shout (god hates gay people, you got what was coming to you etc..) Then one could surely apply that same right to say completely off the wall things to any other place one wants.

    As for being in a shopping mall and using your free speech, yes you still have the right to your free speech in a shopping mall. But being that your now on private property they also have the right to ask you to stop or leave. They can ask you for your ID, but again you can refuse, but you risk them asking you to leave.
    Thanks for the info. Very insightful.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by SGB View Post
    Rather that participate in your attempt to sidetrack the discussion how about you show us where in New York law that you are required to carry identification?
    It's prosecuted under 195.05 Obstructing Governmental Administration

    A person is guilty of this charge when he intentionally interferes or obstructs in any way the administration of law including any investigation or prevents a law officer from conducting an investigation. You do have the right to remain silent but it doesn't mean that you can't be arrested for doing so.

    Example: You are stopped because you fit the description of a person currently being pursued. You refuse to give the officer your name. He will arrest you and obtain prints to determine if you are the suspect. He will effect the arrest under 195.05. If you are not the person being sought the charge will most likely be dropped. The officer can place a 24 hour hold as well until such time he determines who you are.

    SGB, your sig line says "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it." So why wouldn't you follow that rule and just tell the LEO who you are? As an instructor don't you teach avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation as a first line of personal protection?
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    You are attempting to divert the relevent discussion of this thread away from rights infringements by law enforcement officers into a discussion about 2nd and 1st amendment rights of Joe Citizen. Typical strategy of persons who can't support their position on one topic, they try to shift the argument to something unrelated.

    What we are talking about is police interractions with persons who are engaging in no illegal behavior. We are talking about the possibly criminal behavior of those wearing badges and uniforms, not about giving guns to murderers and free speech.
    You're referring to a tactic called "deflection."

    Actually I'm at a certain point in a book where a related issue arises... the right of free speech and the powers of law enforcement to silence it. My position on a topic need not be substantiated. It's an opinion not an absolute.

    But since you bring it up it definitely applies in this situation. You have no first amendment right. We don't seem to have any rights at all anymore. Go down to the local mall get up on your soapbox and exercise your free speech about Obama. Mall security will ask you to leave. Keep talking and the police will arrive. They will ask you to stop. If you don't they will ask for ID. If you don't provide ID or stop talking you'll probably get arrested for trespass. Now when you get to your arraignment keep exercising your first amendment right to the judge. He'll charge you with criminal contempt of court. And if you don't provide proof of who you are you'll be printed and held until they can figure out who you are.

    My questions pertain to how society as a whole views our constitutional right. This isn't a pi$$ing contest. Your quite the provocateur; always itching. That's a good thing as it fueled the sparks that started the American revolution. But let me give you some advice. You apparently think I'm an a$$. Now if you feel the need to bang every a$$, you'll spend your entire life banging a$$e$. Life's too short. It's only an opinion.

    Good discussion. BTW I enjoy your posts.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  6. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    It's prosecuted under 195.05 Obstructing Governmental Administration

    A person is guilty of this charge when he intentionally interferes or obstructs in any way the administration of law including any investigation or prevents a law officer from conducting an investigation. You do have the right to remain silent but it doesn't mean that you can't be arrested for doing so.

    Example: You are stopped because you fit the description of a person currently being pursued. You refuse to give the officer your name. He will arrest you and obtain prints to determine if you are the suspect. He will effect the arrest under 195.05. If you are not the person being sought the charge will most likely be dropped. The officer can place a 24 hour hold as well until such time he determines who you are.

    SGB, your sig line says "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it." So why wouldn't you follow that rule and just tell the LEO who you are? As an instructor don't you teach avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation as a first line of personal protection?
    His sig is talking about life treating conflicts, not ones your well with in your right to resist, seeing as how you have done nothing wrong.

    Also how do you know the officer WILL arrest you? Are you that officer? Last time I checked the police academy all officers are trained that they have the right to use their own DISCRETION!!

    If the tax payers want to put me up in a hotel for doing nothing wrong at a average daily cost of 50-90 dollars. Fine with me, free A/C/Cable,GYM membership,hot food.

    I'll also be filing a writ of Habeas corpus!

    Just know that when I get out I will sue the **** out of the department/Officer/City for Malicious prosecution!

    Then I'll fill out a citizen arrest report and serve it on the officer for abuse of office.

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

  7. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Actually I'm at a certain point in my book where a related issue arises... the right of free speech and the powers of law enforcement to silence it. My position on a topic need not be substantiated. It's an opinion not an absolute.

    But since you bring it up it definitely applies in this situation. You have no first amendment right. Go down to the local mall get up on your soapbox and exercise your free speech about Obama. Mall security will ask you to leave. Keep talking and the police will arrive. They will ask you to stop. If you don't they will ask for ID. If you don't provide ID or stop talking you'll probably get arrested for trespass. Now when you get to your arraignment keep exercising your first amendment right to the judge. He'll charge you with criminal contempt of court. And if you don't provide proof of who you are you'll be printed and held until they can figure out who you are.

    My questions pertain to how society as a whole views our constitutional right. This isn't a pi$$ing contest. Your quite the provocateur; always itching. That's a good thing as it fueled the sparks that started the American revolution. But let me give you some advice. You apparently think I'm an a$$. Now if you feel the need to bang every a$$, you'll spend your entire life banging a$$e$. Life's too short. It's only an opinion.
    Again 90% of the time your not arrested for your first trespass, your told the sign the paper work stating your banned from returning for X-amount of time(most of the time 6 months- a year.)

    I love how you seem to have all the facts on this subject, then ask for our feed back on it. Your basing it all on what? How things in ****** up NYS work? Not every state uses their police force like SS enforcers!

    Fact of the matter is like it or not you do have a first amendment right to free speech in a mall!

    I mean come on if hate speech is a protected right in this country, every other form of speech(short of death threats) is also protected!

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&P40 View Post
    His sig is talking about life treating conflicts, not ones your well with in your right to resist, seeing as how you have done nothing wrong.

    Also how do you know the officer WILL arrest you? Are you that officer? Last time I checked the police academy all officers are trained that they have the right to use their own DISCRETION!!

    If the tax payers want to put me up in a hotel for doing nothing wrong at a average daily cost of 50-90 dollars. Fine with me, free A/C/Cable,GYM membership,hot food.

    I'll also be filing a writ of Habeas corpus!

    Just know that when I get out I will sue the **** out of the department/Officer/City for Malicious prosecution!

    Then I'll fill out a citizen arrest report and serve it on the officer for abuse of office.
    That's a lot of work. I know I'm gettin flamed but wouldn't be easier to tell him your name than to go through all that. Life is enough trouble without bringing more on when it can be easily avoided. Hell, my day is busy enough without the need to start filing complaints and lawsuits. If the guy just said "my name is John Smith" he would have been on his way. No harm done.

    Boy, i'm gettin hammered on this thread! It's OK though. I like the discussion.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Tallahassee Florida
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    It's prosecuted under 195.05 Obstructing Governmental Administration

    A person is guilty of this charge when he intentionally interferes or obstructs in any way the administration of law including any investigation or prevents a law officer from conducting an investigation. You do have the right to remain silent but it doesn't mean that you can't be arrested for doing so.

    Example: You are stopped because you fit the description of a person currently being pursued. You refuse to give the officer your name. He will arrest you and obtain prints to determine if you are the suspect. He will effect the arrest under 195.05. If you are not the person being sought the charge will most likely be dropped. The officer can place a 24 hour hold as well until such time he determines who you are.

    SGB, your sig line says "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it." So why wouldn't you follow that rule and just tell the LEO who you are? As an instructor don't you teach avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation as a first line of personal protection?
    Once again you're attempting to change the perimeters of your original statement. We are not talking about a Terry Stop here, and even if we were one still doesn't have to produce an ID, one only need give their name and where they live.

    Your original quote -

    The police have the right to ask anyone for ID. If you don't provide it you may be taken into custody to determine if you have any warrants. Refusal to provide an ID is proper grounds regardless of the gun issue. He can be detained for obstruction. This a$$hat has been told six or seven times to produce ID and he can go. My head hurts from shaking it in disbelief.
    You are dead wrong in your understanding of the law. The Statute you quote does not require a citizen carry identification and isn't applicable to your claim that you MUST provide identification because the popo asked for it. So once again please provide the specific statute in either New York State Law or US federal Code that requires a citizen carry identification.

    I'm going to make it easy for you, you can't provide it because it doesn't exist.

    While I preach, teach and live by my sig line I have no problem standing up for what I know to be true and lawful. And though I quit totting a badge in 1988 I've always kept up on the law and Court precedents.

    "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    State of Confusion
    Posts
    7,733
    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&P40 View Post
    Again 90% of the time your not arrested for your first trespass, your told the sign the paper work stating your banned from returning for X-amount of time(most of the time 6 months- a year.)

    Fact of the matter is like it or not you do have a first amendment right to free speech in a mall!

    I mean come on if hate speech is a protected right in this country, every other form of speech(short of death threats) is also protected!
    But to sign the paper don't I have to provide my name? Just funnin with ya.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    That's a lot of work. I know I'm gettin flamed but wouldn't be easier to tell him your name than to go through all that. Life is enough trouble without bringing more on when it can be easily avoided. Hell, my day is busy enough without the need to start filing complaints and lawsuits. If the guy just said "my name is John Smith" he would have been on his way. No harm done.

    Boy, i'm gettin hammered on this thread! It's OK though. I like the discussion.
    But again, why should he have to say anything, just so the officer can have peace of mind? In the Eyes of the law he has done nothing wrong. What would lead the police to believe he is a danger to himself and others, other then the fact he is open carrying a lawfully owned and secured firearm?

    When you give on the little things it gives them the green light to step over the line on issues that matter.

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast