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  1. #31
    There is a lot of acrimony flowing in both directions between cops and the general public. You reap what you sow. In many cases, both sides are wrong.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    There is a lot of acrimony flowing in both directions between cops and the general public. You reap what you sow. In many cases, both sides are wrong.
    Let me ask your honest opinion about something then. I am a pro, original-intent constitutionalist. I (and everybody like me) am referred to by Deserteagle on a nearly daily basis as being "anti-government." How can one be pro-the-document-that-legitimizes-government and anti-government at the same time (a rhetorical question that is answered simply by asking it)? Is his attitude towards citizens who revere the Constitution not reaping for himself and all of his co-workers what he sows with tripe like that? Is it not contemptuous of citizens who support cops only to the extent that they support the Constitution? And is not the prudent and proper response to that crap to be distrusting (at least) of those who spew it?

    You seem like a heck of a nice guy LM. You write as a very conscientious and caring individual, but when it comes to refraining from criticizing cops, your reticence speaks as loudly against that premise as your written words speak for it. I'm not asking for special treatment. If you don't like or agree with what I say, that's fine. Just call crap from the cops and cop-groupies crap when they say it and your silence wouldn't control what anyone thinks of you, your actual words will. Or don't. Up to you.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    When I was an LEO, I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of my peers who were less than honorable, and I would still have 4 fingers left over.
    And by that statement, you are agreeing with him. His point is that since any cop "could" be bad, we must mentally prepare for that just like we prepare for anything else that is a possibility (no matter how small).
    -
    That said I do not immediately jump to the conclusion that a cop is bad, just the same as I do not assume that the random stranger intends me harm. I am polite and respectful in both instances, but need to be prepared for any eventuality. It's the basis of situational awareness. If you let your guard down (mentally or physically) because you become complacent with any situation, you invite trouble.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    @bike nut...did you not read the first couple of sentences where I stated that it was conjecture on my part? I don't know why he answered the way he did. I wasn't there. I also did not excuse his behavior, I only attempted to offer a possible explanation... However, since our elected officials seem to think that if a little is good, a lot is better, there are considerably more laws on the books today. That complicates things for the police and civilians alike.
    I understand, and can almost agree with you. While I completely agree with you regarding excessive legislation, If I was the top LEO going to a meeting to discuss gun issues I might take a few minutes to brush up on (and understand) those.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    There is a lot of acrimony flowing in both directions between cops and the general public. You reap what you sow. In many cases, both sides are wrong.
    Are you saying that because cops deal with a large percentage of dirtbags, they are justified in assuming we all are? In the sentence above, "You (the general public) reap what you sow" really means that you think "I" should reap what others have sown. LEO should not have that kind of lattitude. Innocent until proven guilty, but dirtbag until proven otherwise?
    -
    You have mentioned that these LEO took an oath. You must remember that our elected officials did as well, though some take it seriously and some don't.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by whodat2710 View Post
    And by that statement, you are agreeing with him. His point is that since any cop "could" be bad, we must mentally prepare for that just like we prepare for anything else that is a possibility (no matter how small).
    -
    That said I do not immediately jump to the conclusion that a cop is bad, just the same as I do not assume that the random stranger intends me harm. I am polite and respectful in both instances, but need to be prepared for any eventuality. It's the basis of situational awareness. If you let your guard down (mentally or physically) because you become complacent with any situation, you invite trouble.
    And one consideration unique to dealing with police officers when they approach you to "investigate" something is this: by the time you discover that the police officer you are interacting with is "bad", you have likely already relinquished several of your rights that you could use in your defense should you end up in court. For example:

    Police officer, "Hi! Can I talk to you for a few minutes?"
    You, "Sure, officer."
    Police officer, "We got a call that someone is scared because you are carrying a gun so we need to sort this out."
    You, "No problem, officer, what do you need?"
    Police officer, "Well, if I could see some ID, that would be a good start."
    You, "Sure, I have nothing to hide, here is my driver's license."
    Police officer, "OK, your name came back clean, but I am going to have to issue you a citation because you scared someone by carrying your gun, sign here, please. The fine is $400 or you can appear in court in two weeks."

    You just consented to having a voluntary encounter with that police officer and gave up your very first defense in court: were you being legally detained? There is no illegal detention if you voluntarily stay of your own free will. Just like there are no illegal searches if you give your consent. Now it is up to you to prove that a reasonable person would feel like they had no choice but to interact with the officer and that is why you "consented" to the encounter. The mere act of walking up to you and asking to speak to you or even asking for your ID is not a detainment.

    Police officer, "Hi! Can I talk to you for a few minutes?"
    You, "Sure, officer."
    Police officer, "We got a call that someone is scared because you are carrying a gun so we need to sort this out."
    You, "Are you detaining me, officer?"
    Police officer, "I have to investigate the 911 call."
    You, "Am I free to leave, officer, I do not consent to this investigation."
    Police officer, "No, you are not free to leave, I have to investigate the 911 call."

    Now, your first defense in court will be to cause the officer to prove they had reasonable suspicion under which to lawfully detain you because you specifically expressed that you were not consenting to the encounter. If the 911 call contained no other information other than a description of a person engaged in a legal activity, and the officer saw nothing contrary to a person engaged in a legal activity, then there is no basis to legally detain you, for example, to check your identity and verify you were not a person prohibited from carrying a gun. If you can get the initial detention thrown out as having no reasonable suspicion to base it on, all charges after that arising from that detention must be nullified as well.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    There is a lot of acrimony flowing in both directions between cops and the general public. You reap what you sow. In many cases, both sides are wrong.
    And we are right back to that higher standard of accountability for those who have the awesome power of authority... because...

    When a cop is wrong about a law the least that happens is the general public hears misinformation... but the worst that can happen is an individual member of that general public gets wrongly arrested and, at the very least, incurs legal bills but the end result might be the loss of a job and/or a loss of reputation.....and while that individual can sue for wrongful arrest it isn't the cop who suffers the legal bills, the job loss, and the loss of reputation. And even if that lawsuit restores the amount of money spent (unlikely) it will not bring back the reputation or the job that was lost.

    And it is a cop who doesn't know the law or doesn't take the time to find out about the law that has the power to cause an individual to suffer all those things I mentioned above.

  9. #38
    Do those two scenarios have to be the only choices?

    The best way I can describe my position is this...I don't automatically assume that every cop I interact with is bad. I give them the benefit of the doubt. But I also prepare myself for the possibility that they might be bad. The same holds true for the general public. I don't automatically assume that someone I meet is going to try to do me harm but I am prepared for it. And I treat them in the same way I would like to be treated.

    As for my statement that you reap what you sow, I meant "you" in the metaphorical sense. "You" is both sides of the badge. The public distrusts the cops so they tend to treat them so. The cops distrust the public so everyone becomes a suspect. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast, and I don't see any solution to that.

    Blues, thank you for your kind words. I do try to be aware of feelings on both sides when I post. I choose my words carefully. I have often thought that I would have made a good diplomat but I have too many skeletons rattling around in my closet. LOL. I won't comment on your disagreements with other posters except to say that I agree with everyone here at one time or another and that I think everyone here is an idiot at one time or another. I'm sure you all feel the same way about me too. I tend not to be extreme to either end in my views on most subjects (but not all).

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeland Man View Post
    Do those two scenarios have to be the only choices?

    The best way I can describe my position is this...I don't automatically assume that every cop I interact with is bad. I give them the benefit of the doubt. But I also prepare myself for the possibility that they might be bad. The same holds true for the general public. I don't automatically assume that someone I meet is going to try to do me harm but I am prepared for it. And I treat them in the same way I would like to be treated.

    As for my statement that you reap what you sow, I meant "you" in the metaphorical sense. "You" is both sides of the badge. The public distrusts the cops so they tend to treat them so. The cops distrust the public so everyone becomes a suspect. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast, and I don't see any solution to that.

    Blues, thank you for your kind words. I do try to be aware of feelings on both sides when I post. I choose my words carefully. I have often thought that I would have made a good diplomat but I have too many skeletons rattling around in my closet. LOL. I won't comment on your disagreements with other posters except to say that I agree with everyone here at one time or another and that I think everyone here is an idiot at one time or another. I'm sure you all feel the same way about me too. I tend not to be extreme to either end in my views on most subjects (but not all).
    Actually the two examples I gave are merely shades of the same scenario...

    Cop doesn't know the law and people suffer the consequences. Some consequences are mild like hearing misinformation yet some consequences are harsh... like being arrested. But it still ends up being people suffering the consequences when a cop doesn't know the law yet acts (speaking is "acting") on that law.

  11. #40
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    This same "hater vs. prudently cautious" conversation comes up pretty often around here. I recalled that I had explained my position(s) best one time not too long ago when I recounted the events of an incident that I was a secondary participant in, so I'm going to re-post it here to try to make myself understood better. While Lakeland Man's participation in this discussion we've been having is what inspires me to repeat myself this way, this is not directed at him personally and is not in reply to anything he's said. It just seems to fit, so there ya go.....

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerbob View Post
    I've met as many good cops as I have met sh!tty ones, FWIW.
    I'll be honest - I haven't "met" all that many cops. Since about 1994 or so, that has been on purpose. We owned a little coffee shop on the main drag of a small town. When we first opened, we had several folks recommend that we offer discounts or free stuff to cops and firefighters. I had no objection to it, so we offered free small coffees to 'em, and free refills in our logo mugs after they bought one (which was a large size). This one cop started coming in every day and eventually we became pretty friendly. He and his wife both rode their own Harleys, as did me and my wife, so we started going on rides together and generally socializing away from our respective jobs. That went on for at least two years, maybe three.

    One day I'm standing at the espresso machine making a drink when I see a car pull into my parking lot with a cop car with its lights flashing pulling in right behind him. I see the driver get out and start pointing in his car while yelling something towards the cop car. As he's doing that, I see my friend get out of the squad car. I finished up the drink, took my customer's money, and then went outside to see what was up. The driver was yelling, "Dude! She's having a baby RIGHT NOW! I gotta get to the hospital!" My friend was writing a ticket and ignoring the driver, so the driver finally said F You! and started getting back in his car. My friend calmly put his ticket book down on the trunk of the guy's car, walked to the driver's door, opened it, dragged the guy out, SLAMMED him on the hood and started whining about being told "F You" as he emphasized every couple of words with another slam of the guy's head on the hood.

    After it was all over, my now ex-friend had to let the guy go on his way after I called 911 and got his supervisor down there. The dad-to-be was missing two front teeth, both of which I found after everyone left my parking lot. He was bleeding profusely out of his mouth as he drove his wife(?) or girlfriend to the hospital to deliver a baby. Never heard how that went. Never saw the guy again, even though I had told him that I would be a witness for him if he ever needed one. I don't know if my ex-friend was simply embarrassed from losing his cool in front of me, or if he was pissed because he heard me offer to be a witness, but he never came back for coffee anymore, and to tell you the truth, I was glad. The dude was dangerous. I didn't want him in my store anymore.

    There's no big, profound moral to the story here. The best moral I can offer is simply, "You just never know." So I keep my distance from cops in every way I have control over. I haven't actually met and conversed with a cop since that day, and have no desire to. There are an awful lot of folks out there just like me, who have either witnessed brutality dispensed illegally under the color of authority, or they just see the same stuff we all see on YouTube and other outlets and feel fearful and distrusting of cops on that basis alone. Fair or not, there is a brutal image that cops have at least participated in fomenting, if not been wholly responsible for. They are the only ones who can change it. The best any of us can do is survive an encounter with them while being unjustifiably subservient and deferential to them just so we won't piss them off and get our heads smashed against our car hoods for no good reason.
    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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