Rights Violation in Kentucky?
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Thread: Rights Violation in Kentucky?

  1. Rights Violation in Kentucky?

    I am curious to hear some opinions on this one. I am a frequent flyer. I check a firearm every time I fly. Things have gotten a little more complicated on this front as of recent, especially flying Delta. I think last nights encounter went a little farther than I ever thought possible.

    I flew from DFW to CVG last night on Delta. Landed at CVG (in northern Kentucky) and went to claim my bag. Of course now, with Deltas new rules, any bags with firearms are routed to the office where they waste my time by strapping a big zip tie around it. I am used to this and just deal with it. This night however, was a little different. I gave my DL to the Delta employee working behind the counter at her request so that I might retrieve my bag. She verifies I am the owner and THEN turns to a nearby LEO and hands him my DL. He ran my DL over the radio and handed it back to me.

    I asked him why he did that to which he replied, "to make sure you're OK". I said, I am pretty sure that is a violation of my rights. He then stated "it's time for you to leave". I said "fair enough" and went about my way, not wanting conflict.

    I have a couple issues with this. First of all, I committed no crime nor was I under any suspicion that I had done so. There was no probable cause and this seems to be a violation of my "search and seizure" rights. I gave my DL to a representative of a company so that I may retrieve my bag. I did NOT provide my license to law enforcement so that they may identify me, nor do I feel I should be required to in an effort to retrieve my own property of which I legally own. A representative of a corporation took it upon themselves to hand my identification to law enforcement even though I committed no crime.

    Am I crazy? Is this a violation of my rights?

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  3. #2
    Bikenut Guest
    I am not an attorney but I suspect (my opinion) that by using the airline's service (flying with them) you agreed to abide by all their rules and/or policies even if those rules/policies did not recognize some of your rights.

    Kinda like a contract, whether actually signed or tacitly agreed to by accepting the service, where you agree to let them do some things, possibly including not recognizing some of your rights, in return for the convenience of traveling by air. But you agreed to let them do it.

    Did you read all the fine print on your ticket/all printed material the airline provided to you?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I am not an attorney but I suspect (my opinion) that by using the airline's service (flying with them) you agreed to abide by all their rules and/or policies even if those rules/policies did not recognize some of your rights.

    Kinda like a contract, whether actually signed or tacitly agreed to by accepting the service, where you agree to let them do some things, possibly including not recognizing some of your rights, in return for the convenience of traveling by air. But you agreed to let them do it.

    Did you read all the fine print on your ticket/all printed material the airline provided to you?
    The only information I found regarding turning over information to the government is this:

    RULE 25: PERSONAL DATA
    The passenger recognizes that personal data has been given to carrier for the purposes of
    making a reservation for carriage, obtaining ancillary services, facilitating immigration and entry
    requirements, and making available such data to government agencies. For these purposes, the
    passenger authorizes carrier to retain such data and to transmit it to its own offices, other
    carriers, or the providers of such services, in whatever country they may be located.
    This only refers to the personal data that was provided during booking. It does not seem include handing LEO my drivers license without my consent.

    Furthermore, it doesn't state any of it's current practices as a policy in the current contract of carriage.

    9. Shooting Equipment (Sporting Firearms)
    Items of shooting equipment will be accepted as checked baggage only subject to the conditions and
    charges specified below.
    a) Shooting Equipment Defined
    One item of shooting equipment is defined as:
    Delta Domestic General Rules Tariff Page 38 of 51
     one bow and quiver of arrows and maintenance kit enclosed in a case or container of sufficient
    strength to protect the bow and quiver from accidental damage
     one gun case containing up to four rifles/shotguns/shooting material/tools
     one gun case containing up to five handguns/one scope/tools
    b) Conditions Of Acceptance
    Firearms must be unloaded and packed in a locked, hard side case with a key or combination in possession
    of the passenger only. Small arms ammunition must be packed in the manufacturer's original package or
    securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small
    amounts of ammunition. Ammunition with explosive or incendiary projectiles, gun powder, propellant
    charges for muzzle loading firearms such as Pyrodex, and black powder will not be accepted. Ammunition
    exceeding 5 kg. (11 lb.) gross weight per passenger will not be accepted and may not be combined into one
    or more packages. For transportation via Delta flights operated by SkyWest, the maximum amount of
    ammunition accepted is 10 lbs. Ammunition and gun powder will not be accepted as carry-on baggage.
    c) Compliance with Applicable Law
    It is the passenger’s sole responsibility to comply with government laws, regulations or restrictions dealing
    with the possession or prohibition of firearms or other dangerous items. Disclosure of checking a firearm or
    prohibited item must be made at the first point of contact with a Delta Representative and prior to the
    security check point.
    d) Charges
    All standard baggage charges apply

  5. #4
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by JulietBravoKilo View Post
    The only information I found regarding turning over information to the government is this:

    RULE 25: PERSONAL DATA
    The passenger recognizes that personal data has been given to carrier for the purposes of
    making a reservation for carriage, obtaining ancillary services, facilitating immigration and entry
    requirements, and making available such data to government agencies. For these purposes, the
    passenger authorizes carrier to retain such data and to transmit it to its own offices, other
    carriers, or the providers of such services, in whatever country they may be located.

    This only refers to the personal data that was provided during booking. It does not seem include handing LEO my drivers license without my consent.

    -snip-
    Bold above added by me for emphasis.....

    The way I'm reading it, and again I am not an attorney!, because of the commas that separate each of the "purposes" each "purpose" is a separate catagory... and "making available such data to government agencies" is one of those separate purposes`.... so I would think it is possible that handing your driver's license to the carrier in the form of the employee is giving "personal data" to the carrier for the purpose of making such data available to a government agency (the police)... and that would be covered by RULE 25.

    Again I am not an attorney but I am trying to read it from the perspective of an attorney for the airline. And, truth be told, if you wish to pursue this issue with the airline I would strongly suggest contacting an attorney.

    Edited to fix my screw up with where the bold part was supposed to be....

  6. #5
    You have to show your identification, typically your drivers license to many civilian organizations, from airlines, to places that sell alcohol or cigarettes, or to anyplace you choose to pay with a check (does anyone still use checks?), except the person in front of me at the grocery store checkout.
    “Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

  7. Sure, showing my ID to civilians to prove identity is fine. That's not where my issue is. My issue resides in the fact that this civilian requested my identification from me so that I may pick up my bag. Then, without my approval, this civilian gave my ID to a LEO thus removing my right to decline the officers request for identification. Then the officer ran my license so that I may pick up my own property.

    I have no criminal history thus nothing to hide, but my right to fly with a firearm in checked baggage is slowly being encroached upon.

  8. #7
    Bikenut Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by JulietBravoKilo View Post
    Sure, showing my ID to civilians to prove identity is fine. That's not where my issue is. My issue resides in the fact that this civilian requested my identification from me so that I may pick up my bag. Then, without my approval, this civilian gave my ID to a LEO thus removing my right to decline the officers request for identification. Then the officer ran my license so that I may pick up my own property.

    I have no criminal history thus nothing to hide, but my right to fly with a firearm in checked baggage is slowly being encroached upon.
    You might have a right to fly with, or without a firearm, under the right to travel but you do not have any right to fly with, or without a firearm, with Delta. What you do have is an agreement that Delta will provide the service of transporting you in one or more of their privately owned airplanes from one place to another contingent upon your agreeing to the terms and conditions, some of which involve firearms, Delta imposes for that service.

    The thing is, if you accept (agree to) the terms and conditions that Delta has in regards to firearms in return for Delta providing the service of flying you and your firearm somewhere then you agreed to follow Delta's rules, conditions, and terms regardless of your rights. You voluntarily agreed to not exercise your rights in exchange for the service Delta is providing whether that voluntary agreement was by signing something or tacitly by accepting the service, .

    But neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, has any right to fly with Delta (or any other airline) with (or even without) a firearm in your baggage because none of us has any right to fly with Delta (or any other airline) in the first place. We only have an agreement between us and the airline that the airline will use one or more of their airplanes to fly us, and our baggage with or without a firearm, in exchange for us agreeing to all the rules, terms, and conditions that airline might have for providing that service.

    If you wish to truly exercise your right to travel in an airplane without any of Delta's (or any other airline's) terms and conditions concerning firearms then you would need to use your own privately owned airplane.

  9. I fly Delta all the time and my experience says it depends on location on exactly how its handled. Some places just glance at id to make it's you, others I have been escorted out of the terminal by LEO, I have had LEO name match from my ID then send me along. I have not had any run a check however. Personally I could care less if they run it, who cares? I don't have warrants nor a suspect in any crime nor ever committed a crime. If it makes em feel better and causes me no real delay it's just a thing to me.

    I suspect you have the similar background just a difference of opinion on whether LEO should be involved. Not sure however how far it would get in a court. If you pursue that avenue I wish you luck.

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

  10. Initially I would call Delta customer service and place a complaint. I would also place a call to Kentucky Justice and Public Safety Office.
    A conversation may be all it takes to resolve a misunderstanding of authority and save all else the indignity.

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