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  1. #31

    angry

    First, most police departments now have a rule that anyone taken into custody be handcuffed. 2nd, I don't argue that no one has aright to a ride, but if you've ever walked five or ten miles back to your car after being released from custody, only to pass the arresting officer a black later, you have to wonder why he couldn't have been cool about it and given you a ride. 3rd, After everything I went through up north (the police literally declared war on me and harrassed me to the point a judge told them to lay off), I spent two years tryig to find a lawyer to take the case, which was so blatent it's almost funny; no one, not the local "underdog" attorney, the ACLU, Legal Aid, or any of the other at least two dozen lawyers I contacted would touch my case. Even the networks didn't want in on that one.

    The only reason I was ever given was that it would cost too much to prosecute; as the state does not pay filing and writ fees, nor have to pay $2 a page for the transcripts of what will be a long, drawn-out battle, with the State, et al, they can file unlimited paperwork, all of which has to be responded to, and often a fee paid to file it.

    We did have to pay for all that, both in time, and in cash. The conservative estimate was it could go as high as a million dollars to even make it through the trial, with no guarantee of winning, but a definite guarantee the State would appeal with another avalanche of writs, motions, objections, whatever they could come up with to drive us broke. Other cases have been tied up over ten years and the person harmed (grievously), and his attorneys, have yet to see a dime, even though they were awarded two mil.plus in the first trial.

    We went to the Governer, Senators and Representatives (oddly enough, the Sheriff's Dept. was actually on my side, and did their best to see to it I wasn't hurt, or falsely arrested. I think three City officers filed reports requesting my CCW and gun rights be taken, but it was the Sheriff's decision; backed by at least two Municipal Judges and most of the State Supreme Court, I not only kept my permit, but was court-ordered to have my pistol returned "at once!" Someone broke the firing pin while it was in custody ... what are you gonna do? I always carry an extrs piece, sometimes two; I have been rushed for my pistol by several men at once, thinking to catch me by surprise, and I didn't even need to draw for that one; just showed them I could and it wasn't worth their trouble to find out the hard way.

    The only other thing that might have bearing on this current situation is: how was the young man dressed? If he had on baggy pants, etc, and especially if he was wearing anything with a local gang's "colors" on it; hat, headband, neckerchief, etc, that might have had something to do with his being hauled in. It's a shame the world has gotten this way, but even the Arizona Rangers, a non-empowered auxilliary organization, issues bullet-proof vests to everyone as soon as they are accepted, at no cost. I believe firearm education is one key to bringing down the gun violence, along with community action to provide kids with something to do besides wander the streets aimlessly or play gory video games. To the police, unless they know you, anyone can turn out to be a real threat to their lives, and I personally cannot blame them for taking precautions, though I think they often overstep their boundaries. I am just glad the kid didn't make any fast moves or anything that might have gotten him killed. "Profiling" is not right, but it is also not likely to go away. My policy is not to ask for trouble, and that includes how I dress, act, and, especially, respond to the police if stopped. Keep in mind, there is safety in numbers, and there are a lot of LEAs out there; they pretty much do as they please, and I keep that in mind at all times. Thank you, and keep your powder dry. KBV

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  3. #32

    Angry

    hey, Tinkerbang,

    Glad to hear the kid isnt dressing the part of the bad guys. What happened is unfortunate; I went through that sort of thing all the time when I was a kid (early seventies). The problem is: the police, justified or not, generally can use whatever reasonable restraints they deem necessary; it's their call. I got arrested once in Utah for having a loaded .22 single-shot packed in the back of my van. My brother or someone had used it, neglected to unload it, and when I packed to go to school, it was put in still loaded. No excuse for that, but the officer who pulled me over almost beat the s*** out of me; he had the rifle, a kid's Winchester, in position to smash me in the mouth when another officer arrived.

    This rifle was packed in a box that was on top in the very back of the van; no way I could have gotten to it while driving. I wasn't even aware it was there. The LEOs tore my van apart, charged me with DUI (I'd just had one beer with dinner, buit that was enough out in the middle of nowhere), and I wasn't even driving. They confiscated the rifle, took all my money, plus a ham, a big cervalot, and a bottle of Dom Perignon my folks had sent with me to give to my dad's best man at his wedding (we stayed with them until we found an apartment). I had another guy with me, who was only nineteen, driving at the time. Even though he had nothing to drink, they also charged me with contributing to the delinquency of a minor. It was either pay or stay; we paid. It was their word against ours, and we were just glad to get out of St. George in one piece. There is a lot of power behind a badge, and not all LEs are suited to have it. Neither of us ever went back.
    Thank you, and keep your powder dry.

    KBV

  4. Wow, that's just about the ugliest LEO encounter I've heard of. Back where I grew up the local yahoos had their maryjane taken from them and they were sent on their way. Those who got pulled out of a ditch for drinking and driving were followed home to make sure they didn't hit anyone.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by USP40guy View Post
    Inexcusable police behavior. Since Bush took office, the police have become more like storm-troopers than ever. Just watch an episode of COPS sometime.
    Actually the OP was posting about incidents that started when OBAMA won and took office (i.e. break-ins starting 2 months before March of 2009).

    I think that's got more to do with it, since now the state thinks it can get away with more, now that the power-hungry democrats took office.

    This is just like when Clinton took office, and we got Waco and Ruby Ridge-- and then Oklahoma City in retalliation for it.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by kbv View Post
    The only other thing that might have bearing on this current situation is: how was the young man dressed? If he had on baggy pants, etc, and especially if he was wearing anything with a local gang's "colors" on it; hat, headband, neckerchief, etc, that might have had something to do with his being hauled in. It's a shame the world has gotten this way, but even the Arizona Rangers, a non-empowered auxilliary organization, issues bullet-proof vests to everyone as soon as they are accepted, at no cost. I believe firearm education is one key to bringing down the gun violence, along with community action to provide kids with something to do besides wander the streets aimlessly or play gory video games. To the police, unless they know you, anyone can turn out to be a real threat to their lives, and I personally cannot blame them for taking precautions, though I think they often overstep their boundaries. I am just glad the kid didn't make any fast moves or anything that might have gotten him killed. "Profiling" is not right, but it is also not likely to go away. My policy is not to ask for trouble, and that includes how I dress, act, and, especially, respond to the police if stopped. Keep in mind, there is safety in numbers, and there are a lot of LEAs out there; they pretty much do as they please, and I keep that in mind at all times. Thank you, and keep your powder dry. KBV
    Ok, here's the law. Unless the police 1) have a warrant for the person, 2) witness the person commit a misdemeanor, or 3) have reasonable suspicion that the person committed a felony, then they generally cannot make an arrest.
    They also cannot detain a person without an arrest, except on a reasonable suspicion to search for dangerous weapons, if they believe that a crime is about to be committed, or has been committed.

    This is clearly a case of false arrest, if true; since there was no charge.

    As for finding a lawyer, you have to find a Civil Rights attorney who will be willing to sue in federal court.
    Most lawyers don't know enough to file for malicious defense and aggravation, as well as bad fath-- all of which are forbidden by court rules of every state; this will prevent the city from stalling you forever in court.
    If it's a clear case, then a good lawyer will get you a quick settlement by showing that he'll go the distance, and cost the other side FAR more than it will save.

  7. #36
    Ahmen

  8. #37

    Anger

    Tink (OK to call you that?),

    I do feel for the lad, but having been a life-long police magnet, please believe me when I say it could have been much worse. may I offer a few thoughts on the subject? Thank you.

    First, consider who we are dealing with: LEs wake up most every morning, try to act normal, then strap on body anger, arm themselves to the hilt; large,-bore pistols they are trained to shoot to kill, enough ammunition to start a small war, AR15s, Mossberg 12 ga.pump shotguns, and all the ammo they can carry. Taser, night stick, collapsible, spring-loaded steel whip baton, top-drawer radio and cell phone, nut-cup, and whatever else they can find for protection and cause injuries. And most dangerous, especially in the wrong hands, the badge. symbol of complete, total authority to whom winning is everything. , all linked together through an encrypted computer system.

    Most are good people; some are not, but almost to a man or woman, there is an underlying current of fear and Adrenalin; part concerned if this will be their last day, fascinated by all the firepower at their hands and the responsibility at their feet, trained to kill without a moment's hesitation. They never avoid trouble; they spend most of their time looking for it, and when was the last time you heard of the police backing down? I don't know if this qualifies for questionable mental conditions, but most cops I know will fight with everything they have, almost to the last one standing, and they cover, capture, and severely punish anyone who touches so much as a hair on another cop's head.

    They have access to any type of vehicle imaginable: special-training-required interceptors capable of professional competition, big, comfortable souped-up luxury cars, beaters, Hummers, armored assault vehicles, and tanks.

    And there seems to be an endless supply of them. They watch each other's backs, and will come from thousands of miles away, at their own expense, to aid another officer or department under fire. The police, et al, are virtually unbeatable, and some abuse the power. They never explain or apologize for anything they do.

    It's even possible;e they drove the kid home for his own safety; good neighborhood or bad, stuff goes down all over the place. Was there a curfew in effect? Is he any sort of "walking target"? well dressed, alone, walking through poorly-lighted areas? Perhaps with a pretty girl?

    Whenever I take all these, and more, things into consideration, the hardest thing for me to believe is that I am still alive and in possession of all my rights. Many tend to throw their weight around, but I wonder if some of that is simply staying psyched up in case things go south. I know quite a few, and I often wonder , if the order did come down, how many would actually go from house to house collecting guns. There may be plenty more where they came from, but even a ten or twenty minute head start is better than none.

    Last but not least, for all the individual rights the police break in doing their jobs, would you prefer to not have them at all? There used to be a bumper sticker that read something like: "If you don't like the police, next time you're in trouble, call a hippie." Well, minus the badge and the taser, I pretty much carry at all times.'

    The cat stepped on my keyboard, erasing the end of this rant. tired, now; will try to finish later.

    kbv

  9. #38
    RDW,

    I'm with you, brother...I, too, am old and grouchy, and have long considered myself on the line between libertarianism and anarchy. Truly, I believe that I can take care of myself and my family and do not need cradle to grave nanny gov't. Alas, I feel we're in the minority, here, as more and more of our populace looks for handouts. Tis time for the revolution, but it might only be me and you and a very few others...

  10. #39
    kbv,

    Appreciate your posts on LE. For the record, have friends in LE and am fairly sympathetic to the breed. Basically, I'm a law and order kind of guy. That said, I cannot help but feel that we civilians are surrounded by a paramilitary presence (see your post above) that is capable of crushing dissent. What do do?

    In the most basic sense, I do not like that there are people walking around with arrest powers, who have the power to deny your basic freedoms any time they like. It may only be for 5 minutes, an hour, a day, etc. but basically, any cop, any time can choose to deny you your freedom. That bothers me. Add to this the fact that, for the most part, cops provide a cleanup action (i.e., the crime has already been committed, then they show up) and I'm left wondering why we need so many of them. Personally, I feel it is every citizen's right to proactively confront crime when it affects them (like, say, by drawing/using a firearm). If every one did this, then we would only need a mop-up action by a much smaller police force. Of course, they are those who will choose not to train or arm themselves (they're called sheep). However, my point still stands: for the most part, sheep are not protected against immediate crime, they are simply mopped up off the asphalt after the fact.

    Everyone should treat others and be treated, with respect. If you don't treat me with respect, maybe you get a black eye for your trouble. And I expect to get one, too, if I don't treat you with respect. If you attempt to foist a serious crime on me or my family (or even another unknown civilian while I'm around), then maybe you get scraped up off the asphalt. At any rate, every citizen should be responsible for his/her safety. LE cannot provide personal protection for all individuals. Bottom line: we don't need so many paramilitary-trained cops around, as far as I'm concerned. My 2 cents.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by kbv View Post
    Tink (OK to call you that?),

    I do feel for the lad, but having been a life-long police magnet, please believe me when I say it could have been much worse. may I offer a few thoughts on the subject? Thank you.

    First, consider who we are dealing with: LEs wake up most every morning, try to act normal, then strap on body anger, arm themselves to the hilt; large,-bore pistols they are trained to shoot to kill, enough ammunition to start a small war, AR15s, Mossberg 12 ga.pump shotguns, and all the ammo they can carry. Taser, night stick, collapsible, spring-loaded steel whip baton, top-drawer radio and cell phone, nut-cup, and whatever else they can find for protection and cause injuries. And most dangerous, especially in the wrong hands, the badge. symbol of complete, total authority to whom winning is everything. , all linked together through an encrypted computer system.

    Most are good people; some are not, but almost to a man or woman, there is an underlying current of fear and Adrenalin; part concerned if this will be their last day, fascinated by all the firepower at their hands and the responsibility at their feet, trained to kill without a moment's hesitation. They never avoid trouble;
    Oh, how wrong you are. There's no incentive to look for trouble, vs. harass innocent citizens who won't shoot them. Anyone who says that LEO's look out for the people, are idiots: they look out for themselves.

    when was the last time you heard of the police backing down?
    They call for back-UP. But mostly, they just avoid the situation if possible, leave the victim to fend for themselves, and arrive when it's over in order to "save the day--" including to arrest the victim if they broke any laws in the process.
    The Supreme Court's already ruled that they're under no obligation to protect any citizen, so why bother?

    I don't know if this qualifies for questionable mental conditions, but most cops I know will fight with everything they have, almost to the last one standing, and they cover, capture, and severely punish anyone who touches so much as a hair on another cop's head.
    And to hell with Joe Citizen's. It's sort of an "unwritten code" that LEO's have with the BG's-- "mess with the masses, and we'll play by the rules-- but mess with US, and the gloves come off." It's clearly understood that there's 2 sets of rules.

    Whenever I take all these, and more, things into consideration, the hardest thing for me to believe is that I am still alive and in possession of all my rights.
    Relatively speaking.

    Last but not least, for all the individual rights the police break in doing their jobs, would you prefer to not have them at all?
    Yes, I'd prefer a private security firm.

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