Simon Properties Letter
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Thread: Simon Properties Letter

  1. #1

    Simon Properties Letter

    Gordo suggested we put letters, articles and such in this forum area to give each other ideas or quotable items to help us express our support (or opposition) to 2A, CC, Seld-defense and other topics of interest.

    This was the letter I sent to Simon Properties PR Spokeman, CEO and COO in the wake of the Omaha Mall shooting. I think HK also sent the first letter to their HQ asking if they were intending to reassess their policies after that event. Hope this helps.


    Dear Sir:

    I was a bit surprised and, frankly, concerned, to read an excerpt
    from a letter you sent recently (December 10th, 2007) reaffirming
    Simon Properties' position prohibiting possession of firearms on your
    premises. While this is certainly your right as a property owner in
    most, if not all states, it is equally my right to wonder whether
    your policy stems from a different source than a desire "
    maintain a safe, secure and comfortable environment...and to avoid
    any situation that could potentially place at risk the safety of our
    shoppers and employees."

    I would be curious as to whether your company actually has any
    factual studies or even any sort of rational indication that
    prohibiting lawful carrying of weapons on your properties has any
    effect whatsoever in reducing gun fatalities in your facilities.
    Please feel free to cite any instances where policies similar to
    yours have in any way inhibited firearms-related violence. I can only
    recall incidents such as have occurred at Virginia Tech University,
    Appalachian School of Law, Trolley Square (a former Simon Property),
    Tacoma Mall (Simon Property), the recent Westroad Mall shooting
    (Simon Property) and several other gun-free zone locations such as
    public schools. Are there per capita customer numbers somewhere
    which indicate that similar policies have, in fact, slowed or reduced
    these types of occurrences?

    Your letter went on to state the following: "We recognize that
    everyone does not endorse such a policy. However, it is the one our
    company embraces and enforces at each of our properties and which we
    believe is in the best interest of those who work and visit there."
    At some point you might want to provide some proof that your
    rationale has any substance and justify your claim as to a "safe,
    secure and comfortable environment" because I would not feel any of
    those three emotions given your lack of success in meeting this


    Edward Cocks
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  3. #2
    Thank you Ecocks, that is what I was talking about. However, I believe the idea came from Luke when he put in this category.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Иєш Лєяжşєşŧăŋ
    DUDE!! Great letter! It probably won't amount to anything from a policy-changing perspective, but it should sure make sense to anyone willing to take the effort to think it through! Good job!
    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32° & KT
    The Only Answer to a Bad Guy with a Gun - Is a Good Guy with a Gun!
    When Seconds Count...The Police are only MINUTES Away!

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Иєш Лєяжşєşŧăŋ
    You inspired me! Sent just now via e-mail...

    Dear Sir:

    I am recently made aware of the corporate policy of Simon Properties with respect to the lawful carry of concealed weapons for those licensed to do so. I am informed that Simon Properties specifically prohibits anyone, including a properly licensed, law-abiding citizen, from carrying a firearm for self defense on your corporate property.

    I am of the opinion that such a policy is exactly at odds with your stated desire to create a safe, secure shopping environment. Such a rule will prevent a lawfully licensed shopper from carrying on your property, true, but will do nothing to inhibit a lawbreaker . . . a person who will carry a weapon onto your property with the specific intent of doing harm, in flagrant defiance of any law . . . and creates, in actual fact, a ”free-fire” zone wherein this individual can wreak his havoc without fear of being confronted by anyone with the wherewithal to stop him. Such was the case at your properties at Westroad Mall, the Tacoma Mall and Trolley Square, as well as at Virginia Tech — all properties and institutions which have at their root the prohibition of carrying weapons on the property.

    If this satisfies your definition of a “safe, secure” shopping environment, I think I’ll pass.

    At this time, here in New Jersey, we are not permitted to exercise our Rights under both the U.S. and New Jersey Constitutions, in that we are prohibited from carrying concealed weapons legally. However, my heart is with those who are limited by your rules in those States where legal concealed carry is permitted. As a result, until such time as your company finds the good sense to allow your patrons the choice of being able to defend themselves and their companions on your property, I will no longer shop at your Riverside Square Mall facility in Hackensack. While I sincerely like the property and the shopping options it offers, I feel I must make my statement and stand with those whom you deny the basic right of self defense while enabling an environment in which terror and mayhem can ensue unchallenged.

    At this time, some 40 States provide their citizens with legal concealed carry licensing. I am sure Simon Properties has many investments in those States. I hope you review your policy and consider the option of changing it.


    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32° & KT
    The Only Answer to a Bad Guy with a Gun - Is a Good Guy with a Gun!
    When Seconds Count...The Police are only MINUTES Away!

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Drakes Creek, AR
    Awesome letters guys! How do I go abt finding out what properties they own in which states? Simon properties dot com?..never mind, I found them..only one store in AR and thats in Little Rock..too far away for me to worry abt, but who knows, I do get to LR once in a while..may I borrow one of your letters? I'll doll it up to fit my needs, if thats okay that is..
    Last edited by DrLewall; 12-14-2007 at 01:57 AM.
    Drakes Creeks, AR
    "A gun unloaded and cocked aint good for nuttin!"--Rooster Cogburn

  7. #6

    Feel free

    - use it as a starter or template and have at it. Just trying to make things easier for everyone.
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Иєш Лєяжşєşŧăŋ
    Fine with me, too. Use what you want. I'm glad you feel it's copy-worthy.


    There's been a shooting at the Town Center Mall at Boca Raton, Florida. Report can be found HERE.

    And GUESS FREAKING WHAT!!?! It's another Simon Property!!

    EDIT: Sorry...Link sux. Here...

    Mother, daughter found dead in car in Florida mall parking lot

    BOCA RATON, Fla. (CNN [Blecch!!]) -- Boca Raton police are calling the deaths of a mother and her 8-year-old daughter, found in their car in a mall parking lot, "a robbery-homicide."

    The bodies of Nancy Bochicchio, 47, and her daughter, Joey Bochicchio-Hauser, were found early Thursday inside their Chrysler Aspen by a Boca Town Center Mall security guard who noticed the car's motor was running, police said.

    "We are still investigating the circumstances of the crime," said Assistant Chief Edgar Morley.

    The Palm Beach County medical examiner has not yet determined the cause of death. (Posted 11 a.m.)
    Last edited by Ektarr; 12-14-2007 at 07:44 PM.
    NRA Life; GOA Life; CCRKBA Life; Trustee, NJCSD; F&AM: 32° & KT
    The Only Answer to a Bad Guy with a Gun - Is a Good Guy with a Gun!
    When Seconds Count...The Police are only MINUTES Away!

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Florida,Port Richey
    It seems that simon properties owns and operates a good percentage of malls across the united states.

  10. #9

    I think

    they have 347 of them if I remember correctly.

    Simon continues on their mission " maintain a safe, secure and comfortable environment...and to avoid any situation that could potentially place at risk the safety of our shoppers and employees."

    So many things I/we could say but...

    BTW, I never heard anything back from my letter to the PR flack, CEO and COO. Guess their heads are so deep in the sand (come on...BE NICE...I know what you are thinking) they don't want to think about these things. Maybe they will expand their program and put up signs at the parking lot entrances saying:

    "People who are mentally unstable or prone to irrational acts of violence are hereby prohibited from entering these premises."

    Yeah, that would surely fix the problem.

    Last edited by ecocks; 12-15-2007 at 04:21 PM.
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  11. It's all about the tort...

    Hello, ladies and gentlemen...first-time poster here. I thought I might add a thought to your thread on this subject, with all due respect.

    I work as a paralegal/legal assistant at a law firm that does not only criminal defense work, but also personal injury work within the State of Florida. From behind glasses of those colors, I'm guessing that the sad reality here is that Simon will never overtly permit licensed concealed carry within their properties anywhere. To do so could possibly be construed as condoning the behavior of any licensed shooter while on their premises, and even in the instance of a totally justified shooting by a licensed shooter would bring Simon civil liability to aggrieved parties shot by a licensed shooter, e.g. innocent bystanders, mall employees, etc.

    I'm guessing that the way this would have to go as far as for those of us that strongly believe in our rights as citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons would be along the lines of 'don't ask, don't tell.' Unless the sign on the door specifically prohibits carry, I would think it might be permissible to carry. Then again, I wouldn't count on any support from Simon in the unfortunate event of a shooting.

    What a shame, no?

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