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  1. #11
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    Some people just don't get it...and never will..

    As much as Dr. Phil is a crackpot, he doesn't have a valid point, some people don't get it and never will.

    It's not my fault you can't differentiate between definition of recognition and reciprocity. Even your own State page uses the term recognition and not reciprocity. I do know that the MI AG will enter into reciprocity agreements if it is required to get MI CPLs honored in another State. However this is not a reciprocity agreement in Nevada. The MI AG just satisfied the requirements of NRS 202.3689. NV DPS does not have the legislative authority to enter into reciprocity agreements.

    MI is a "we recognize all resident CCWs" State. What we have is mutual recognition. Furthermore, the page you've cited States that the AG is required to contact each State to determine which State recognize MI CPLs.

    Reciprocity is a formal contractual agreement between two States with respect to licenses or permits. This can apply to any license or permit; medical doctor, educator, private investigator, bail enforcement, insurance producer, realtor, etc.

    While mutual recognition is the same with respect to the layman, there is one very important distinction. If recognition is granted by an entity of the State granting such recognition, it can be pulled at any time, for any reason, With reciprocity agreements, there is typically a 30 day notice of cancellation of the agreement. You don't have that if it's arbitrarily decided by AG or other agency within the State on how long a given State will be recognized.

    In NV, it can feasibly happen during a visit here that recognition gets pulled. If you are discovered carrying concealed by a NV LEO after MI is removed from the list even if it's pulled after you traveled here you will be committing a category D felony which would result in you losing all of your 2A rights. It's not likely it will happen, but within the legal spectrum it can happen. If recognition is not a statutory requirement but at the arbitrary decision of an elected official or a committee or panel of entities it can be taken revoked at any time. If recognition is a statutory requirement as it is in MI, it would take an act of the MI legislature or a MI judge to invalidate that.
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    As much as Dr. Phil is a crackpot, he doesn't have a valid point, some people don't get it and never will.

    It's not my fault you can't differentiate between definition of recognition and reciprocity. Even your own State page uses the term recognition and not reciprocity.
    CT, FL, ME NH, NV, UT & VA CCW Holder
    I agree that the words have two different definitions but if you look at the part of the web page that says Reciprocity it takes you to the page that uses the word recognizers.

    You need Reciprocity for recognition, without actually looking at the signed agreement that the AG's entered into you cannot say it is not reciprocity just because they use the word recognize on a web page.

    I do not know your AG but I do know Mike Cox and when he says he signed a reciprocity agreement then it is that. States do not tend to "Recognize" with out someone giving a push and I can tell you that push came from the Michigan side and not the Nevada one.

    Too bad you have to waste all that time and money maintain all those CCW permits from other states to be able to carry, maybe you should back a good pro State AG like we did.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    I agree that the words have two different definitions but if you look at the part of the web page that says Reciprocity it takes you to the page that uses the word recognizers.

    You need Reciprocity for recognition, without actually looking at the signed agreement that the AG's entered into you cannot say it is not reciprocity just because they use the word recognize on a web page.

    I do not know your AG but I do know Mike Cox and when he says he signed a reciprocity agreement then it is that. States do not tend to "Recognize" with out someone giving a push and I can tell you that push came from the Michigan side and not the Nevada one.

    Too bad you have to waste all that time and money maintain all those CCW permits from other states to be able to carry, maybe you should back a good pro State AG like we did.
    I know that NV does not enter into reciprocity agreements from attending the post 2007 legislative session meeting in the Grant Sawyer building in Las Vegas NV sponsored by some pro-2A NV legislators and the NV Sheriffs' and Chiefs' Association. It was clarified by the panel of the Nevada Sheriffs & Chiefs Association it is recognition and not reciprocity. I have no doubt the push comes from the States wanting to be recognized in NV. That's how Florida ended up on the NV recognition list.

    Unfortunately the term reciprocity is used very loosely. In TX, recognition is called a "unilateral proclaimation of reciprocity." You can have recognition without reciprocity. Look at AZ, LA and PA.

    Two of mine aren't going to be renewed because they are no longer needed; FL and VA. The maintenance costs of the remaining of the remaining States I'm keeping are nothing. FL, NV and VA are the most expensive ones I have.

    If you have such a pro-gun AG and legislature, why do you still have all of these stupid prohibited areas we don't in NV? I travel frequently and with perhaps the exception of Louisiana; I see States with legalized gambling with casinos as a prohibited area for CCW, laugh and say, "I'm from Vegas, you call that a casino?" :icon_razz:
    Last edited by netentity; 05-19-2008 at 09:18 PM.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    I know that NV does enter into reciprocity agreements from attending the post 2007 legislative session meeting in the Grant Sawyer building in Las Vegas NV sponsored by some pro-2A NV legislators and the NV Sheriffs' and Chiefs' Association. It was clarified by the panel of the Nevada Sheriffs & Chiefs Association it is recognition and not reciprocity. I have no doubt the push comes from the States wanting to be recognized in NV. That's how Florida ended up on the NV recognition list.

    Unfortunately the term reciprocity is used very loosely. In TX, recognition is called a "unilateral proclaimation of reciprocity." You can have recognition without reciprocity. Look at AZ, LA and PA.

    Two of mine aren't going to be renewed because they are no longer needed; FL and VA. The maintenance costs of the remaining of the remaining States I'm keeping are nothing. FL, NV and VA are the most expensive ones I have.

    If you have such a pro-gun AG and legislature, why do you still have all of these stupid prohibited areas we don't in NV? I travel frequently and with perhaps the exception of Louisiana; I see States with legalized gambling with casinos as a prohibited area for CCW, laugh and say, "I'm from Vegas, you call that a casino?" :icon_razz:
    Now there is a big part of your problem Never let the police decide how a law is interpreted! 99% of the time they will screw it up What is needed is for someone to submit a request for clarification through their Representative to your AG for clarification and a official definition.

    Police can only have opinions, but too often we are willing to accept what they say as law, no the street is not the place to argue with them there are proper avenues for that, in short Lawyer up.

    Unfortunately every state has a bar and it's own version of an exam that is why each lawyer is only licensed to practice in the state they are certified in, this is why Definitions and how laws are interpreted can and do vary state by state, kind of like the famous Clinton quote "That depends on what your definition of is, is."

    Not sure how NV is but I bet it is the same as it is here here, your AG only interprets and enforces the law, which can be a real POS like our last one that actually spent state funds and took money from anti gun groups to fight the enactment of our "Shall issue" law, or they can be aggressive n help like Mike has. I also bet you have your anti legislators that have been elected by an ignorant section of the populace (like we have in the Detroit area) that decide on who they are going to vote for by the race card alone.

    When our Shall issue law was first enacted you could not even carry in a pizza hut because they served beer, but it was a step in the correct direction, over the years we have put a choke hold on the CEZ (criminal empowerment zones) and have been removing them one at a time.

    Prior to our Shall issue law we had what was called a General permit, which let you carry anywhere, they were highly coveted but were impossible to obtain, more than one person died begging for and not getting one.

    All the gun boards would issue is a permit with restrictions "Hunting and target only". Then someone came up with the idea of obtaining a out of state permit that would be valid in Mi. That worked for almost two years until Mi passed a law that only recognized permits from your state of residency.

    Finally in the 90's a bunch of us got together and started multiple grass roots groups that got very politically active, and it snowballed from there, and still is today. Out west gun attitudes are usually more for than against, we are getting there one step at a time.

  6. #15
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    You still don't get it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Now there is a big part of your problem Never let the police decide how a law is interpreted! 99% of the time they will screw it up What is needed is for someone to submit a request for clarification through their Representative to your AG for clarification and a official definition.

    Police can only have opinions, but too often we are willing to accept what they say as law, no the street is not the place to argue with them there are proper avenues for that, in short Lawyer up.

    Unfortunately every state has a bar and it's own version of an exam that is why each lawyer is only licensed to practice in the state they are certified in, this is why Definitions and how laws are interpreted can and do vary state by state, kind of like the famous Clinton quote "That depends on what your definition of is, is."

    Not sure how NV is
    That is absolutely correct, you don't know how NV is.

    but I bet it is the same as it is here here, your AG only interprets and enforces the law, which can be a real POS like our last one that actually spent state funds and took money from anti gun groups to fight the enactment of our "Shall issue" law, or they can be aggressive n help like Mike has. I also bet you have your anti legislators that have been elected by an ignorant section of the populace (like we have in the Detroit area) that decide on who they are going to vote for by the race card alone.

    When our Shall issue law was first enacted you could not even carry in a pizza hut because they served beer, but it was a step in the correct direction, over the years we have put a choke hold on the CEZ (criminal empowerment zones) and have been removing them one at a time.
    The NV AG is the chief LEO of the State and represents the State in legal matters. However, the AG cannot violate statute. If authority has been delegated to an entity by statute (which it has in Nevada) then the AG must abide by that. The NV AG is also prohibited, as in many States, from providing legal advice to the general public; this is the case for the NV AG.

    Assemblyman Settelmeyer was at the NSCA CCW public meeting as well who was a sponsor of SB237. Nevadans, CCW instructors who attended and the NCSA CCW subcommittee were in attendance.

    NRS 202.3689 specifies the exact recognition list criteria.

    In layman's terms here's what happens.

    • NV DPS sends an inquiry to every State AG on the issuance requirements for their respective CCW and if a 7/24 online verification system is available through a nationwide law enforcement data communicatioins network.

    • NV DPS then sends the response back to the NV AG for a legal opinion on whether or not the issuance requirements of the responding State are substantially similar to NV.
      If the State does meet the critieria, the State's responses to the NV DPS inquiry are sent to the NCSA. They review it and there is a vote of all Nevada Sheriffs and Police Chiefs on whether or not the State should be included in the NV DPS recognition list. Frank Adams has stated on record that it will be unlikely that if NV DPS recommends a State be added that NSCA will not likely vote against it.


    In Nevada, Sheriffs and Police Chiefs set the training standards and whether or not by vote if if a given State's CCW will be recognized in this State by statute. It was the only way we were going to get recognition in this State because a chronic thorn in our backside known as Bernie Anderson who is the Chair of the Nevada Judiciary Committee. He has the power on whether or not to table bills or allow the committee to vote. He has literally shot down recognition and reciprocity. He is also the reason why NV CFP applicants still have to qualify for specific semi-auto pistols.

    That is how it is done in Nevada for recogntion. If you want additional clarification, you can request a copy of the NCSA post 2007 legistative session CCW meeting from Frank Adams who is the Executive Director of the NSCA, Nevada Assemblyman Settelmeyer or Nevada State Senator John Lee. I'm sure they can provide the video for you or give you information on how to get it. It is available in accordance to the Nevada open meeting law.

    I have done everything I can do to clarify the differences between recognition and reciprocity and how it does work in Nevada. If you still believe the sky is purple when it is indeed blue that is your choice. I can speak for Nevada because I live, work here, vote and also do my due diligence on the statutes here as it is my responsibility as firearm instructor. If you wish to continue to spread this misinformation about the recognition logistics of Nevada, you do have your first amendment rights.

    Anyone else reading this thread, I strongly recommend you do your due diligence, consult a person knowledgeable on the subject or a member of the Nevada State Bar. The NV firearm statutes are not difficult to interpret. It's not like CA where the firearm laws rival the federal tax code.
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    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    That is absolutely correct, you don't
    Assemblyman Settelmeyer was at the NSCA CCW public meeting as well who was a sponsor of SB237. Nevadans, CCW instructors who attended and the NCSA CCW subcommittee were in attendance.


    In Nevada, Sheriffs and Police Chiefs set the training standards and whether or not by vote if if a given State's CCW will be recognized in this State by statute. It was the only way we were going to get recognition in this State because a chronic thorn in our backside known as Bernie Anderson who is the Chair of the Nevada Judiciary Committee. He has the power on whether or not to table bills or allow the committee to vote. He has literally shot down recognition and reciprocity. He is also the reason why NV CFP applicants still have to qualify for specific semi-auto pistols.

    That is how it is done in Nevada for recogntion. If you want additional clarification, you can request a copy of the NCSA post 2007 legistative session CCW meeting from Frank Adams who is the Executive Director of the NSCA, Nevada Assemblyman Settelmeyer or Nevada State Senator John Lee. I'm sure they can provide the video for you or give you information on how to get it. It is available in accordance to the Nevada open meeting law.

    Oh I understand your state is totally messed up and prime of a major law suit the first time they try something stupid, I said it before and I will reiterate it for you one more time NEVER LET THE POLICE MAKE OR DECIDE LAW THEY WILL SCREW IT UP 99% OF THE TIME ESPECIALLY THIS SO CALLED CHIEF'S ASSOCIATION!!! they are neither qualified, trained om, or sufficiently knowledgeable of the law, all they have is and can render are opinions and that is not law, that is what the lawyers and legislators are for! All it will take is one person with too much money and time on their hands and your state will loose a pile of money.

    There is a legal term for this and I butcher it each time I try and spell it but it is based in Latin phrase which I stink at, but it involves when someone makes up a law and you believe it therefore giving it power, and you not believing it and challenging it rendering it void, n this is what your so called chiefs associations is doing.

    Kick your legislator in the rear for being a lazy bunch and take back your laws before it gets any more messed up.

  8. #17
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    It's that way for multiple States...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Oh I understand your state is totally messed up and prime of a major law suit the first time they try something stupid, I said it before and I will reiterate it for you one more time NEVER LET THE POLICE MAKE OR DECIDE LAW THEY WILL SCREW IT UP 99% OF THE TIME ESPECIALLY THIS SO CALLED CHIEF'S ASSOCIATION!!! they are neither qualified, trained om, or sufficiently knowledgeable of the law, all they have is and can render are opinions and that is not law, that is what the lawyers and legislators are for! All it will take is one person with too much money and time on their hands and your state will loose a pile of money.

    There is a legal term for this and I butcher it each time I try and spell it but it is based in Latin phrase which I stink at, but it involves when someone makes up a law and you believe it therefore giving it power, and you not believing it and challenging it rendering it void, n this is what your so called chiefs associations is doing.

    Kick your legislator in the rear for being a lazy bunch and take back your laws before it gets any more messed up.
    In the following shall issue States the issuing law enforcement agencies have jurisdiction and can practice administrative rules on recognition, reciprocity, certified instruction or the CCW program itself;

    • AR: Additional administrative requirements. State police certifies instructors. Arkansas State Police also requires that a new resident that holds a recognized or reciprocal CCW surrender it to be issued an AR CHL.
    • AZ: Arizona DPS certifies instructors and also enters into reciprocity agreements.
    • CO: County sheriff certifies instructors.
    • CT: Local agency issuing temporary permit for residents can add additional requirements even though it is illegal per CT BFPE.
    • ID: County Sheriff certifies instructors. ID is may issue at 18, shall issue at 21.
    • IN: Chief LEO of agency accepting the initial application (in applicant's place of residence or employment) can add arbitrary additional requirements.
    • LA: Louisiana State Police certifies instructors and has the authority to enter into reciprocity agreements. They are also charged with verifying mutual recognition.
    • NC: County sheriff certifies instructors.
    • ND: Application requires chief LEO in the jurisdiction you reside (resident or non-resident) to sign off on the application.
    • NE: State patrol certifies instructors.
    • MI: County gun board can add additional requirements of applicants (i.e. mandatory appearance or interview).
    • MO: County or City of St Louis Sheriff certifies instructors.
    • NV: NV Sheriffs & Chiefs Association has control over the training curriculum, instructor certification and recognition.
    • OR: May issue for non-resident CHLs.
    • PA: County Sheriff or City of Philly can arbitrarily set reference requirements. Centre County does not have any reference requirements.
    • SC: SLED is responsible for establishing reciprocity agreements and certifying instructors. SLED is not very receptive to the CCW program to begin with and think only LEOs should carry.
    • UT: BCI certifies instructors.
    • VA: County may add optional requirements; i.e. fingerprinting or an interview with the county sheriff of local PD.


    I keep my eyes on what's happening nationwide since I am a traveling CCW instructor. NV isn't the only State with issues or where the issuing agency has some control over administrative regulatioins and procedures over the CCW program. Biggest control is training certification, recognition and reciprocity. The MI county gun boards need to go. Another issue is having to be a resident for a period of time before applying with no grace period for your prior CCW. Think I'm going to move to MI? No. I'll move to FL, NH, another part of NV or WY first. I'll only reside in States that have no State income tax and have some method where I can legally CCW prior to me establishing residency and are legal class III/NFA States.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    In the following shall issue States the issuing law enforcement agencies have jurisdiction and can practice administrative rules on recognition, reciprocity, certified instruction or the CCW program itself;

    • AR: Additional administrative requirements. State police certifies instructors. Arkansas State Police also requires that a new resident that holds a recognized or reciprocal CCW surrender it to be issued an AR CHL.
    • AZ: Arizona DPS certifies instructors and also enters into reciprocity agreements.
    • CO: County sheriff certifies instructors.
    • CT: Local agency issuing temporary permit for residents can add additional requirements even though it is illegal per CT BFPE.
    • ID: County Sheriff certifies instructors. ID is may issue at 18, shall issue at 21.
    • IN: Chief LEO of agency accepting the initial application (in applicant's place of residence or employment) can add arbitrary additional requirements.
    • LA: Louisiana State Police certifies instructors and has the authority to enter into reciprocity agreements. They are also charged with verifying mutual recognition.
    • NC: County sheriff certifies instructors.
    • ND: Application requires chief LEO in the jurisdiction you reside (resident or non-resident) to sign off on the application.
    • NE: State patrol certifies instructors.
      [*]MI: County gun board can add additional requirements of applicants (i.e. mandatory appearance or interview).
    • MO: County or City of St Louis Sheriff certifies instructors.
    • NV: NV Sheriffs & Chiefs Association has control over the training curriculum, instructor certification and recognition.
    • OR: May issue for non-resident CHLs.
    • PA: County Sheriff or City of Philly can arbitrarily set reference requirements. Centre County does not have any reference requirements.
    • SC: SLED is responsible for establishing reciprocity agreements and certifying instructors. SLED is not very receptive to the CCW program to begin with and think only LEOs should carry.
    • UT: BCI certifies instructors.
    • VA: County may add optional requirements; i.e. fingerprinting or an interview with the county sheriff of local PD.


    I keep my eyes on what's happening nationwide since I am a traveling CCW instructor. NV isn't the only State with issues or where the issuing agency has some control over administrative regulatioins and procedures over the CCW program. Biggest control is training certification, recognition and reciprocity. The MI county gun boards need to go. Another issue is having to be a resident for a period of time before applying with no grace period for your prior CCW. Think I'm going to move to MI? No. I'll move to FL, NH, another part of NV or WY first. I'll only reside in States that have no State income tax and have some method where I can legally CCW prior to me establishing residency and are legal class III/NFA States.
    Don't know about the rest of the states but not in Michigan, although the Detroit area tried it and lost in court, when our shall issue system was first placed into effect.

    How it actually works here is first time license applicants must show before the board and a brief interview, this is usually done in mass of groups as large as 30 people at a time, unless there is a personnel issue then it is conducted in private usually these people end up denied for various reason such as lieing about criminal backgrounds on the form.

    Renewals are now done in-order to save time via mail unless there have been significant changes in the application.

    Our gun board consist of the County Prosecutor, the Sate Police commander for the area, The county Sheriff, and the County Clerk a well balanced group, and no they can not make rules or law as they go, again it was tried in the Detroit area and they got their hands slapped in court.

    Cities, Counties, and other municipalities can make no gun laws or ordinances, that right is reserved for state government, yes they tried and again it was in the Detroit area and again they got slapped in the face in court. are you seeing a pattern yet?

    So your information for Michigan is in error, any bets on the other states, it may be time to go back to school.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Don't know about the rest of the states but not in Michigan, although the Detroit area tried it and lost in court, when our shall issue system was first placed into effect.

    Cities, Counties, and other municipalities can make no gun laws or ordinances, that right is reserved for state government, yes they tried and again it was in the Detroit area and again they got slapped in the face in court. are you seeing a pattern yet?
    Same thing happend in the City of St Louis and St Louis County when MO went shall issue; your point is? That was, however, easy to fix. MO residents in the City of STL and STL County would just get a Florida or Utah since MO is a we honor all State with no residency requirement.

    So your information for Michigan is in error, any bets on the other states, it may be time to go back to school.[/QUOTE]
    Can you vouch for every county in MI? I highly doubt it. You can only vouch for your county as you personally have gone through the process. I have also heard of MI CPL applicants just receiving a call from the gun board or clerk to pick up their license without an interview. How is that uniform? Have you heard of abuses by the various county gun boards? I have, WACO being the highest incident of abuses. WACO is also the most dangerous county in the US to live in per the FBI UCR. The gun board interview is an optional process which varies from county to county. How much power does a MI county gun board have? Probably quite a bit.

    When you get things less screwed up as they are here in NV, I'll considering visiting my relatives on my father's side who predominately live in Jackson County MI. States that have an asinine laundry list of prohibited areas I tend to avoid.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    Same thing happend in the City of St Louis and St Louis County when MO went shall issue; your point is? That was, however, easy to fix. MO residents in the City of STL and STL County would just get a Florida or Utah since MO is a we honor all State with no residency requirement.

    Can you vouch for every county in MI? I highly doubt it. You can only vouch for your county as you personally have gone through the process. I have also heard of MI CPL applicants just receiving a call from the gun board or clerk to pick up their license without an interview. How is that uniform? Have you heard of abuses by the various county gun boards? I have, WACO being the highest incident of abuses. WACO is also the most dangerous county in the US to live in per the FBI UCR. The gun board interview is an optional process which varies from county to county. How much power does a MI county gun board have? Probably quite a bit.

    When you get things less screwed up as they are here in NV, I'll considering visiting my relatives on my father's side who predominately live in Jackson County MI. States that have an asinine laundry list of prohibited areas I tend to avoid.
    Dont you just love it when the ant's have to eat crow! on the downside someone had to spend the money to fight it in court, In our case it was our main grass roots group that had the pockets. At least our new castle law puts that burden on the BG N it should be the same for a incidence like this, they are wrong, they know they are wrong, the law says they are wrong, but the put up a fight and hope you will not.

    Ah yes the infamous Wayne county, the biggest thorn in the backside of not just us pro 2A people either. There is a cop over there that has given out over 5,000 tickets last year and bragged about his OT, which is what has gotten him in the spotlight, yes he is in trouble.

    As I stated in my previous message All New permits must show for a interview. Renewal's are by mail, if there has been no significant change N yes it is standardized across the state so your rumor source needs to recheck their sources.

    Don't do me any favors but it's a Pitty we have a great deer hunting season n need to take more of them off the road, it's your loss. As I said we are working on them one step at a time, it was a huge fight just to prove that there would not be any "shoot outs in the streets", our crime rates have dropped just as they have in other CC states.

    We can already carry in many areas that most states cannot, like Restaurants that serve Beer n other forms of drink. Banks, Credit Unions, to name a couple more, no not casinos yet or in a School but we can in the parking lot or are just going to pick up someone, Fair grounds are good to go, N we are working on the entrainment facility with the magic 2,500 number. As I said we are proving to be a trustworthy lot and they are backing off the restrictions one at a time.

    Meanwhile you need guys to get busy and loose that gun board of Police officers that think the know the law and make rule's that are not valid in a court of law.

    It's time to Leave the law's to the Lawyers and your legislature, and the tickets and enforcement to the police.

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