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Thread: Open carry legal in Michigan

  1. #61
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    I have a CPL and consistently carry concealed when and were legal. Sometimes I get tired of large baggy clothing and just put the Glock on and go about my business. There are many reasons to get a CPL. I consider CPL holders part of the solution, not the problem.

    Every LEO I have discussed open carry with has acknowledged they know it's legal. I read stories about LEO's using anything else to cause people open carrying problems. You need to be squeaky clean. A good one is tinted windows in your car, expensive and points. Respectfulness politeness and a cooperative attitude go a long way with every LEO I have ever met.

    Golden Rule: It's difficult to treat a person that is polite, respectful and cooperative poorly.

  2.   
  3. I do not own a gun, I'm actually looking to find out what the people on this forum feel about the 2 gentleman in this article that was printed in my hometown paper.

    Gun advocates claim police violated rights | thetimesherald.com | The Times Herald

    Read it and let me know if you feel about the situation.

  4. #63
    wolfhunter Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Computerjunkie View Post
    I do not own a gun, I'm actually looking to find out what the people on this forum feel about the 2 gentleman in this article that was printed in my hometown paper.

    Gun advocates claim police violated rights | thetimesherald.com | The Times Herald

    Read it and let me know if you feel about the situation.
    Let's do a little experiment to remove possible hype from the story. Go back and read "guitar" in every place where the story mentions what the two guys were carrying. Now, who was in the wrong? The two guys legally carrying guitars, or the cops?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    I have a CPL and consistently carry concealed when and were legal.
    That's the problem: they give the state a carte blanche to DECIDE when and where it's legal.
    Sometimes I get tired of large baggy clothing and just put the Glock on and go about my business. There are many reasons to get a CPL
    Unless you CAN'T get one, for reasons that are entirely arbitrary on the part of the legislature-- which says that one person't life is NOT equal to another's.

    I consider CPL holders part of the solution, not the problem.
    No, they're part of the problem, because democracy MUST be based on the premise that all men are created equal. By turning basic rights into elite privilege, then CPL-holders are no longer equal, and thus society is no longer democratic-- i.e. these CPL-holders enjoy SPECIAL rights and privileges over others, and so they don't care about basic riights anymore,and won't fight for them; in fact, they will tend to ejoy their unfair advantage, and fight to KEEP it that way.
    By refusing CPL licenses at whim, lawmakers turn democracy into elite aritocracy.

    Every LEO I have discussed open carry with has acknowledged they know it's legal.
    CPL-laws are NOT legal, since they violate the 2nd, 4th and 9th amendments concerning the right of the people to be scure in bearing arms on their persons without public scrutiny-- as well as the 10th Amendment regarding state-powers that are prohibted by the Constitution.

    I read stories about LEO's using anything else to cause people open carrying problems. You need to be squeaky clean. A good one is tinted windows in your car, expensive and points. Respectfulness politeness and a cooperative attitude go a long way with every LEO I have ever met. Golden Rule: It's difficult to treat a person that is polite, respectful and cooperative poorly.
    if you're a SLAVE-- which you ARE, if it makes any difference beyond the amount of cooperation required by law.

    This is the clear pattern I mentioned above, when rights devolve into elite privilege: i.e. the trembling lackey blames the victim, having sold out his rights for elite privilege; and he thinks it can't happen to him, as long as he's a good little boy.
    As Ben Franklin said, "trading liberty for securtiy, costs you both and gets you neither.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Computerjunkie View Post
    I do not own a gun, I'm actually looking to find out what the people on this forum feel about the 2 gentleman in this article that was printed in my hometown paper.

    Gun advocates claim police violated rights | thetimesherald.com | The Times Herald

    Read it and let me know if you feel about the situation.

    This is just a SYMPTOM of what happens when you require a license to do something; i.e. it erodes the basic right associated with it. Again, CCW laws are purely unconstitutionall, and so when that right goes, others follow.

    THere's a very strong, but subtle, political agenda behind all of this: i.e. they want to deprive the people of liberty and security, so the state can play Godfather and "make them offers they can't refuse" in exchange for protection- rather than simply respecing their rights.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradAnderson View Post
    That's the problem: they give the state a carte blanche to DECIDE when and where it's legal.


    Unless you CAN'T get one, for reasons that are entirely arbitrary on the part of the legislature-- which says that one person't life is NOT equal to another's.



    No, they're part of the problem, because democracy MUST be based on the premise that all men are created equal. By turning basic rights into elite privilege, then CPL-holders are no longer equal, and thus society is no longer democratic-- i.e. these CPL-holders enjoy SPECIAL rights and privileges over others, and so they don't care about basic riights anymore,and won't fight for them; in fact, they will tend to ejoy their unfair advantage, and fight to KEEP it that way.
    By refusing CPL licenses at whim, lawmakers turn democracy into elite aritocracy.


    CPL-laws are NOT legal, since they violate the 2nd, 4th and 9th amendments concerning the right of the people to be scure in bearing arms on their persons without public scrutiny-- as well as the 10th Amendment regarding state-powers that are prohibted by the Constitution.



    if you're a SLAVE-- which you ARE, if it makes any difference beyond the amount of cooperation required by law.

    This is the clear pattern I mentioned above, when rights devolve into elite privilege: i.e. the trembling lackey blames the victim, having sold out his rights for elite privilege; and he thinks it can't happen to him, as long as he's a good little boy.
    As Ben Franklin said, "trading liberty for securtiy, costs you both and gets you neither.
    Wrong.... So in analogy people that get drivers or pilots licenses have "Special Elite Privileges"? People who chose to CC get their "Special Privilege" by taking the time to (in most states that is, as some do not require certification and any can CC if they desire with out a permit) jump though hoops, get a FBI background check, just as a Drivers license must be earned so must a CC permit. Wouldn't it be interesting if we just threw every one the keys to the car and said go for it, you'll figure it out.... So don't fault the driver just because he chose to drive a car and not ride a bicycle.....

    OC or CC... Carrying a gun may be a right (break the law and it becomes a privilage ask any ex con) but I sure feel a whole lot safer when I know they have been through some kind of training regimen first. I could eat up a heap of bandwidth here with stories of those that bought a gun and had no idea what they were doing but....

    Me I do both as the occasion requires, there is a time a place for OC, and CC as I was faulting my son the other day. He has his CC but was going to walk into his place of work OC, and although it is a public business, and I have OC'd there I highly advised him not to....

    Yeah ramble on all you want to but when your employer has a policy against employees not carrying guns on site, and although he was not on the clock, why push the issue, possibly loosing his job in todays high unemployment world?

    Some states such a thing would only be considered SOP but not in Michigan, baby steps, baby steps, we fought for years to get our shall issue law, then fought more to have the CEZ removed and have been successful although slowly.
    If you grab your gun and go for a walk around the block you will likely be OK, if you do it at a OC rally you will be OK, if you go for a motorcycle ride, (in most areas) you will be OK, but if you do so at the mall you may have problems it's called ground work. Trying to shove your rights down the throats of people that are less receptive will only serve to Piss them off, cause undue stress for all, and hurt the cause, so think before you cross the highway and look both directions first.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Wrong.... So in analogy people that get drivers or pilots licenses have "Special Elite Privileges"? .
    NON-SEQUITUR analogy. Those licenses are issued to people who have demonstrated a required level of skill at what they're doing-- here, we're talking about concealing a firearm, what's so skillful about that? We've already established that open-carry is legal in Michigan, so why not CONCEALED carry? The only answer: HARASSMENT.

    Likewise, they don't DENY driver's and pilot's licenses to people, based on arbitrary stigmas and public medieval hysteria which have NOTHING to do with their ability to drive or fly-- like they do with CPL's.

    Finally, I don't see anything in the Constitution about "the RIGHT of the people to drive motor-vehicles on public roads."

    You're comparing apples and atom-bombs, I won't take up that fool's argument.

  9. #68
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by BradAnderson View Post
    NON-SEQUITUR analogy. Those licenses are issued to people who have demonstrated a required level of skill at what they're doing-- here, we're talking about concealing a firearm, what's so skillful about that? We've already established that open-carry is legal in Michigan, so why not CONCEALED carry? The only answer: HARASSMENT.

    Likewise, they don't DENY driver's and pilot's licenses to people, based on arbitrary stigmas and public medieval hysteria which have NOTHING to do with their ability to drive or fly-- like they do with CPL's.

    Finally, I don't see anything in the Constitution about "the RIGHT of the people to drive motor-vehicles on public roads."

    You're comparing apples and atom-bombs, I won't take up that fool's argument.
    No skill hummm... So either you choose for personal reasons not to have a CC or have some issue in your past that disallows you from being issued one.... Hence you place blame on those that take the time to spend the time, money, take the training, and in some cases additional training the gain the skill sets needed to obtain and maintain their permit....

    You know Brad pointing the fickle finger of blame at those that are of a like mind is not a real good way to move people to your side of an argument, after all those that are here are of a similar mind set, wanting basically the same thing when it comes to gun rights....

    Just as with any permit if you mess up you will be denied, and a Drivers license (or Pilots for that matter) is no different, mess up, become a felon and you loose your gun rights... Not a US citizen, DUI, or multiple other criminal acts, no DL for you.....

    As to being able to drive a vehicle in public not being a right, just for giggles look up the laws WRT interstate commerce, and you will find a group that is of very similar issue but their point is with government issued licenses to drive a vehicle. They strongly feel that it is indeed a right and will post a very similar argument should you disagree.

    So it is not apples to A bombs, it may be a good idea for you to increase your knowledge base to properly influence a good discussion, and spend some quality book time.... Should you have the time I also recommend a visit here The Constitution Society and have a read of the founding documents with special attention to the Federalist papers, a very enlightening read.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    No skill hummm... So either you choose for personal reasons not to have a CC or have some issue in your past that disallows you from being issued one....
    The STATE disallows people from it. It has NOTHING TO DO with anything in anyone's past.

    Hence you place blame on those that take the time to spend the time, money, take the training, and in some cases additional training the gain the skill sets needed to obtain and maintain their permit....
    Get a load of this.

    This shows the arrogance of the CPL-law, i.e. it makes CPL-recipients feel superior for earning a privilege, when it's actually a RIGHT.

    And he thinks it takes time, money, and training, simply to CONCEAL something?
    Ok: the ONLY difference between CPL and open-carry, is CONCEALING it. Is that REALLY so hard to understand?
    Does he NOT REALIZE that Open-carry is legal in Michigan? Or can't he even READ the title of the thread he's posting in?

    Yep-- there we have it, folks-- dummies get CPL's, but rational people get barred.
    And so, we see the subtle hand of dictatorship at work.


    J
    Just as with any permit if you mess up you will be denied, and a Drivers license (or Pilots for that matter) is no different, mess up, become a felon and you loose your gun rights... Not a US citizen, DUI, or multiple other criminal acts, no DL for you.....

    Now he's the CPL-Nazi: "NO CPL FOR YOU!"

    He still doesn't even realize the principle at work: that we're talking about a RIGHT, here... and yet he thinks that it can be justifiably subjected to arbitrary whim and caprice of the state.
    It just doesn't register with his kind, what kind of FIRE he's playing with-- his opinion is just as I said: that CPL-holders are superior, and that everyone else is a 2nd-class citizen.

    THIS is why CPL holders are the problem-- they blame the victim rather than the state, and feel that they DESERVE their elite privileges to carry concealed weapons while others are forced to open-carry.

    THIS is the elitist-mindset at work: it compromises equality, by giving elite privilege to some, and turning the rest into second-class citizens.
    Look how he BRAGS about how he supposedly EARNED the privilege by "taking the time, money, training" etc-- while totally dishing those who are DENIED it, calling them "mess-ups."
    Such arrogance is always how the dictators divide and conquer the people, by making the elite faction feel superior to the oppressed... and clearly, they start with the less intelligent members who can't figure it out:

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    --Franklin H. Littell


    As to being able to drive a vehicle in public not being a right, just for giggles look up the laws WRT interstate commerce, and you will find a group that is of very similar issue but their point is with government issued licenses to drive a vehicle. They strongly feel that it is indeed a right and will post a very similar argument should you disagree
    And now, for the grand finale of irrationalism, he compares an fringe-group opinion, with plainly written and guaranteed RIGHTS in the state and federal Constitutions, as well as established state and federal LAW.
    This is why I don't take up a fool's argument: only a fool would.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradAnderson View Post
    The STATE disallows people from it. It has NOTHING TO DO with anything in anyone's past.



    Get a load of this.

    This shows the arrogance of the CPL-law, i.e. it makes CPL-recipients feel superior for earning a privilege, when it's actually a RIGHT.

    And he thinks it takes time, money, and training, simply to CONCEAL something?
    Ok: the ONLY difference between CPL and open-carry, is CONCEALING it. Is that REALLY so hard to understand?
    Does he NOT REALIZE that Open-carry is legal in Michigan? Or can't he even READ the title of the thread he's posting in?

    Yep-- there we have it, folks-- dummies get CPL's, but rational people get barred.
    And so, we see the subtle hand of dictatorship at work.


    J


    Now he's the CPL-Nazi: "NO CPL FOR YOU!"

    He still doesn't even realize the principle at work: that we're talking about a RIGHT, here... and yet he thinks that it can be justifiably subjected to arbitrary whim and caprice of the state.
    It just doesn't register with his kind, what kind of FIRE he's playing with-- his opinion is just as I said: that CPL-holders are superior, and that everyone else is a 2nd-class citizen.

    THIS is why CPL holders are the problem-- they blame the victim rather than the state, and feel that they DESERVE their elite privileges to carry concealed weapons while others are forced to open-carry.
    THIS is the elitist-mindset at work: it compromises equality, by giving elite privilege to some, and turning the rest into second-class citizens.
    Look how he BRAGS about how he supposedly EARNED the privilege by "taking the time, money, training" etc-- while totally dishing those who are DENIED it, calling them "mess-ups."
    Such arrogance is always how the dictators divide and conquer the people, by making the elite faction feel superior to the oppressed... and clearly, they start with the less intelligent members who can't figure it out:

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    --Franklin H. Littell




    And now, for the grand finale of irrationalism, he compares an fringe-group opinion, with plainly written and guaranteed RIGHTS in the state and federal Constitutions, as well as established state and federal LAW.
    This is why I don't take up a fool's argument: only a fool would.
    So now you get rude, which I have to believe proves my point you have in your past committed some minor infraction and cannot get a CC if you wanted one....

    No having my CC does not make me feel superior, but it does give one a sense of accomplishment, kind of like when you graduated from high school, or learned to ride your first bicycle, you stuck with it, you took the time, and yes any moron can CC but not legally or safely, it does take a skill set, one apparently you refuse to acknowledge or attempt.

    But if you want to see the real problem here for the OC people go look in a mirror, you are not helping the cause any with your extremest paranoia attitude, spinning off on a rant, blaming everyone and thing except where the blame actually lies.

    I will agree with you on one point though, if we could be like AZ, Vermont or Alaska where no permit is required for firearms other than a state DL, it would be a very nice thing indeed, however the political mind set is not open to this line of reasoning at present, it took several other states passing shall issue legislation, proving that there were no shoot outs in the streets, that there was an actual benefit in a reduction of crime by honest law abiding citizens carrying firearms and several tries with good pro gun legislators before we were successful so......

    If you want change, you must get politically active, get to know your Representative on a first name basis, volunteer your time, but big hint here, as I said above do not try and shove your rights down the throats of others, all you will end up doing is alienating them and creating an enemy, one that will wine and cry like a Democrat during the Bush, Gore election.

    So age up a bit there lad, learn some lessons for it is said "it is a wise man that learns from another's mistakes" but a fool goes off and makes his own over and over again, your line of argument only creates animosity not Allies.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

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