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Thread: Open carry legal in Michigan

  1. Obviously, my point stands; the idiot ADMITS that he blames the victim, validates the state, and exalts himself as having EARNED something which is expressly stated as a RIGHT in the Constitution.

    Again, I won't take up a fool's argument-- and every word proves him to be a fool indeed. And since there's no fool like an old fool, from his talk then he must be 100.

    And his best line of all?

    yes any moron can CC but not legally
    Again, note the thread-title: "open carry legal in Michigan". So he's claiming that simply CONCEALING a carried gun, takes some special skill that should require making it illegal without a permit.

    And he calls OTHERS "morons..." irony of ironies.

    This, people, is the mentality behind CCW laws. I guess he thinks the Jews in the Holocaust weren't "politically active" enough either... fools never learn.

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  3. #72
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by BradAnderson View Post
    Obviously, my point stands; the idiot ADMITS that he blames the victim, validates the state, and exalts himself as having EARNED something which is expressly stated as a RIGHT in the Constitution.

    Again, I won't take up a fool's argument-- and every word proves him to be a fool indeed. And since there's no fool like an old fool, from his talk then he must be 100.

    And his best line of all?



    Again, note the thread-title: "open carry legal in Michigan". So he's claiming that simply CONCEALING a carried gun, takes some special skill that should require making it illegal without a permit.

    And he calls OTHERS "morons..." irony of ironies.

    This, people, is the mentality behind CCW laws. I guess he thinks the Jews in the Holocaust weren't "politically active" enough either... fools never learn.
    So again you resort to insults, again proving my point, you can live with the guilt of the past and never obtain a CC or you can learn to live with it and move on.

    You add words that I did not post, misconstrue sentences, and rewrite my posting to suit your paranoia, and ignore the rest. you are sounding more and more like a crybaby democrat with every reply.

    OK now son go sit in the corner, calm down for a bit and pay attention, this old guy is trying to teach you a life lesson that can help, that is if you will actually listen for once and stop your rant.

    History lesson with an analogy: Once upon a time there was a group called the Michigan Melita, and they were of a rapidly growing number. Their leadership got kind of radical, and they held marches in open places like malls, shopping centers, parks, they would dress up in full battle attire and march about trying to shove their right to be a Melita down the throats of others, they were breaking no laws and did as they please. Needless to say this made soccer moms, and the elderly uneasy, and in the eye of the press it was a feeding frenzy.

    I had a chance discussion with their leader at one local event, and in the course of our conversation said that he had a good idea but his method of promoting the group were a little radical and in need of toning down a bit, T shirts and hats were more friendly and less intimidating to the public, that their always showing up in full dress was a bit over the edge. He thanked me but continued along his line of promotion. So today they still exist but are a small, and somewhat ostracized group, shunned by many, and for the most mislabeled as extremest.


    Lesson Continues: Back when there were more anti than pro gunners in charge of the state there was what was called the "General permit" coveted by many, but so rare that it bordered on unbend legend. Virtually obtainable unless you were a licensed PI, Judge, were related too or real close friends with everyone on the gun board.

    For a great many years many attempted to rectify this but were thwarted at every turn, and then Florida broke the mold with their flagship shall issue law, but still MI resisted with determination. At the peak of the fight there was an incident that made the news, at least in the pro gun sector in a big way. A local gal that was in fear of her life had applied for one of the general carry permits, stating her fear of her ex, of the useless restraining order, how he stalked her, how the police had been called (over 13) multiple times, but was refused as not having sufficient grounds. What happened next you can guess, her ex one night after work hunted her down, kidnapped, brutally raped and murdered her.
    This tragedy helped to spur on those that wanted a more fair and just system of issuing permits to the citizens, and yes you could have argued until the cows came home that it was a right via the US Constitution but then that line of reasoning would have left us where we were and not where we are.

    We succeeded though political processes, having grass roots groups having meetings and getting to know our candidates and their stand, through getting to know our Representatives, helping them on their election campaigns, through posting adds in local papers, writing articles, letters to the editor, through peacefull demonstrations promoting, through the sweat and efforts of those that wanted a more just system. No we did not rant, rave or insult. No we did not try and alienate those of the gun world that did not march with us.

    The tricky part and rest of the lesson so pay attention: At the time of the "general" permit system OC simply was not accepted, if you attempted this you would end up in jail, plain and simple, and yes someone in the BC area tried it. If you did so and were not on your own property you were legally out there by yourself and no one would step up to help. if you want to see the article you will need to go to the Library and look up the Enquire and News story on MICRO FISH, date was in the summer of either 70 or 71.

    As CC slowly became accepted by the public at large, the OC crowd came forth with more legal backing, and the proof that citizens can responsibly carry guns, that there were no records of issues with law abiding citizens wishing to either OC or CC.

    lessons learned: That you must not try and offend in your mission to promote what is a right or you will create more friction than your cause needs and that makes you a huge part of the problem and not the solution, that yes you may or may not be right in what ever your endeavor however....
    Remember you can slide a lot further on Bull **** than you can on sand. So again baby steps, for if you go forth with insuilts, rants and a this is my right learn to live with it attitude, you could very well end up loosing that right in a future legislative session, pressed by those that you offended with your shove it down their throats attitude.

    "it is a wise man that learns from the mistakes of others" but a fool goes forth and makes his own, over and over.....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  4. Sheesh, the idiot thinks I want to quibble with him.

    Oh well, one can dream....

  5. #74
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    Sheldon,
    You are correct about the evolution of our gun rights in Michigan. I remember appearing before the Oakland County Licensing Board attempting to get a Non-Restricted CCW. Nothing in my history disqualified me for that permit, however I'm sure you know the results. I received a permit for "hunting and target". In those days you needed that permit to legally remove the gun from your house to go hunting or to the range.

    Mr. Anderson,

    I have taken a little time to respond to your insults. I think a little more Michigan history is in order.

    Prior to the passage of MCL 123.1102, Michigan Firearm Laws Preemption Act, in 1990 every local unit of Govt. had the right to create any firearm laws they wanted. Open Carry was a guarantied trip to prison, CCW's were impossible to get if you were not politically connected.

    During the 80's the City of Ferndale would only process "Applications to Purchase a Pistol" about 2 hours per week. Every city had it's own rules.

    Until the A.G. Opinion from Jennifer M. Granholm in February of 2002 that carrying a firearm open in a holster was not "brandishing a firearm in public" That was just another trip to jail for the brave attempting to OC.

    The point about Florida changing the laws to "shall issue" opened the door. They issued 100k permits and nothing bad occurred. Concealed carry in Florida had a dramatic effect on crime. Criminals started picking on those they knew would not be armed, remember all the tourists being carjacked and shot leaving the airport in rental cars. This was occurring so often that laws were passed prohibiting any markings on rental cars rented in Florida. The next time you rent a car in Florida look for the labels, they don't exist.

    The Politicians that passed Florida's new laws understood what was at stake. They didn't just pass a law allowing anybody to CC. They established reasonable restrictions in an attempt to avoid an occurrence that would have doomed the movement for many years.

    You seem to have a problem with people that followed the process to get a CPL. Describing CPL holders as part of the problem is ridiculous. Does it sound like the CPL holders on this site don't take the responsibility of carrying a firearm seriously? Most of us are aware of the political consequences of our actions and how we represent our cause. It is this responsibility that continues to provide ammunition for the continued loosening of the firearm laws that violate our rights of self defense.

    I think an endorsement on our DL would serve the same purpose. All a CPL represents is you are not disqualified from legally CC a firearm. Just think about what a hassle an LEO encounter could be without the CPL process. How about LEO's performing back round check while you wait on the side of the road.

    I don't know and don't care about the reasons you don't get a CPL. The restrictions generally follow the same restrictions for the purchase of firearms. In my eyes those restrictions don't seem unreasonable. If you think they should be different then become politically involved. We live in a society that all opinions count, not just ours.

    Your rants don't change anybodies mind.

  6. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    Sheldon,
    You are correct about the evolution of our gun rights in Michigan. I remember appearing before the Oakland County Licensing Board attempting to get a Non-Restricted CCW. Nothing in my history disqualified me for that permit, however I'm sure you know the results. I received a permit for "hunting and target". In those days you needed that permit to legally remove the gun from your house to go hunting or to the range.

    Mr. Anderson,

    I have taken a little time to respond to your insults. I think a little more Michigan history is in order.

    Prior to the passage of MCL 123.1102, Michigan Firearm Laws Preemption Act, in 1990 every local unit of Govt. had the right to create any firearm laws they wanted. Open Carry was a guarantied trip to prison, CCW's were impossible to get if you were not politically connected.

    During the 80's the City of Ferndale would only process "Applications to Purchase a Pistol" about 2 hours per week. Every city had it's own rules.

    Until the A.G. Opinion from Jennifer M. Granholm in February of 2002 that carrying a firearm open in a holster was not "brandishing a firearm in public" That was just another trip to jail for the brave attempting to OC.

    The point about Florida changing the laws to "shall issue" opened the door. They issued 100k permits and nothing bad occurred. Concealed carry in Florida had a dramatic effect on crime. Criminals started picking on those they knew would not be armed, remember all the tourists being carjacked and shot leaving the airport in rental cars. This was occurring so often that laws were passed prohibiting any markings on rental cars rented in Florida. The next time you rent a car in Florida look for the labels, they don't exist.

    The Politicians that passed Florida's new laws understood what was at stake. They didn't just pass a law allowing anybody to CC. They established reasonable restrictions in an attempt to avoid an occurrence that would have doomed the movement for many years.

    You seem to have a problem with people that followed the process to get a CPL. Describing CPL holders as part of the problem is ridiculous. Does it sound like the CPL holders on this site don't take the responsibility of carrying a firearm seriously? Most of us are aware of the political consequences of our actions and how we represent our cause. It is this responsibility that continues to provide ammunition for the continued loosening of the firearm laws that violate our rights of self defense.

    I think an endorsement on our DL would serve the same purpose. All a CPL represents is you are not disqualified from legally CC a firearm. Just think about what a hassle an LEO encounter could be without the CPL process. How about LEO's performing back round check while you wait on the side of the road.

    I don't know and don't care about the reasons you don't get a CPL. The restrictions generally follow the same restrictions for the purchase of firearms. In my eyes those restrictions don't seem unreasonable. If you think they should be different then become politically involved. We live in a society that all opinions count, not just ours.

    Your rants don't change anybodies mind.
    SS~Gold, Good post. I got my 6 Gun in '89 and had to watch what, where I was. Mich is not perfect, and there is room for improvement, So get involved with groups like this, MGO, MCRGO Let Lansing (Or what ever other state capital is for where you live) know what your thoughts are...

    Happy Fathers Day all
    Semper Fi

  7. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricbak View Post
    SS~Gold, Good post. I got my 6 Gun in '89 and had to watch what, where I was. Mich is not perfect, and there is room for improvement, So get involved with groups like this, MGO, MCRGO Let Lansing (Or what ever other state capital is for where you live) know what your thoughts are...

    Happy Fathers Day all
    Indeed +1
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by SSBN620Gold View Post
    Sheldon,
    You are correct about the evolution of our gun rights in Michigan. I remember appearing before the Oakland County Licensing Board attempting to get a Non-Restricted CCW. Nothing in my history disqualified me for that permit, however I'm sure you know the results. I received a permit for "hunting and target". In those days you needed that permit to legally remove the gun from your house to go hunting or to the range.

    Mr. Anderson,

    I have taken a little time to respond to your insults.
    I didn't insult you, so that's one fact you should get straight. As for the rest:

    I think a little more Michigan history is in order.

    Prior to the passage of MCL 123.1102, Michigan Firearm Laws Preemption Act, in 1990 every local unit of Govt. had the right to create any firearm laws they wanted.
    No, they didn't. There's something called the federal Constitution Supremacy clause, which means that state laws can't violate federal law. Likewise, the Michigan Constitution expressly guarantees the right of every person to keep and bear arms. So don't try this at home, kids-- I'm a professional.

    Open Carry was a guarantied trip to prison, CCW's were impossible to get if you were not politically connected.
    Bull, the law is plain and clear. If people don't know the law, that's their problem not mine. The point is that people who knew the law, coudl get permits-- so it was a moot point. Now it's become a plebiscite of mob-rule, where almost ANYONE can get a permit, if they don't have a stigma attached to them which has NOTHING to do with their fitness to carry or not, but which simply pleases the public hysteria against "mental illness--" again, REGARDLESS of whether someone is a proven threat to themselves or others. Of course this is 100% unconstitutional, but it's one of those witch-hunts which doesn't matter since no one wants to martyr themselves in court to challenge it.
    Perhaps you like living under mob rule-- which just shows how stupid you are; of course when the fickle mob turns round on you, you'll squeal like a baby big on the slaughter.

    You seem to have a problem with people that followed the process to get a CPL.
    No, I have a problem with REQUIRING a CPL, when the law is clear that people DON'T NEED ONE, since they have the RIGHT to bear arms for self-defense (Michigan Constitution, Article I, section 6), and to do it in a manner which doesn't subject to them to public scrutiny (US Constitution, 9th Amendment, right of Privacy). In other words, they don't NEED a permit to carry a concealed firearm.
    Second, since they can already carry openly without a license, then the only thing the license does is allow them to CONCEAL it-- and only an idiot would think that this is any more dangerous than carrying openly. So it's clear that you people are idiots.

    And yes, I have a problem with Peiople who EMBRACE laws that turn Constitutional rights into elite privileges, while denying them to others based on medieval stigmas-- like Shelly-boy. Get your facts straight, your head outta your ass, and learn to read English. (Yes I know that's faulty parallel structure, but I doubt that YOU know it so the point's moot).

    Describing CPL holders as part of the problem is ridiculous. Does it sound like the CPL holders on this site don't take the responsibility of carrying a firearm seriously?
    HELLO, I was talking about the RIGHT to carry them-- which is being VIOLATED by the law; and Shelly's just jiggy with it. So are you. This is the problem-- i.e. when the most intelligent people are denied rights are are made into elite privileges enjoyed by morons like you and Shelly. This is a social trend of dictatorship which obviously flies over your little head with your low IQ's and failed abstract-thinking ability.

    Your rants don't change anybodies mind.
    Speak your yourself idjit, A is A-- not that you know that THAT means, either, since you don't even realize that "anybodies" isn't even a word. Stupid.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by ricbak View Post
    SS~Gold, Good post. I got my 6 Gun in '89 and had to watch what, where I was. Mich is not perfect, and there is room for improvement, So get involved with groups like this, MGO, MCRGO Let Lansing (Or what ever other state capital is for where you live) know what your thoughts are...

    Happy Fathers Day all
    That's like saying "Nazi Germany is not perfect, and there is room for improvement, So get involved with groups like the Fifth Colum, the Underground Resistance, let Berlin (or whatever state capital is for where you live) know what your thoughts are..."

    It's really easy to say that when you're one of the elite-- but incredibly arrogant and offensive to those who aren't.

  10. #79
    wolfhunter Guest
    BradA - I've read your rant through this thread. I understand you feel the Constitution codifies your right to carry. I even agree with you on that point. However, in the reality of today's world the state and Federal Supreme Courts are currently allowing gun laws such as the requirement for a permit to CCW to stand. Until we can get the courts to rule the laws are unconstitutional, or get Congress (or state legislators) to repeal these laws many have determined to follow existing laws as we work to reverse them.

    I hope that your discussions with the Anti-gun crowd is more rational and less insulting than what you've posted here.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by wolfhunter View Post
    BradA - I've read your rant through this thread.
    It's not a "rant," it's a response to idiots who don't have a clue.

    I understand you feel the Constitution codifies your right to carry.
    No, I don't "feel it," I KNOW it-- can't you read the thread-title, either? What part of "OPEN CARRY LEGAL IN MICHIGAN," do you NOT understand?
    I even agree with you on that point. However, in the reality of today's world the state and Federal Supreme Courts are currently allowing gun laws such as the requirement for a permit to CCW to stand.
    No. You're confusing the right to carry, with the right to PRIVACY.

    It would be different, if the state didn't allow the RIGHT to open-carry-- but it DOES. So the right to privacy also stands, under federal law-- thus yielding the right to carry CONCEALED as well. End of discussion. I can't help if you can't understand that.

    I hope that your discussions with the Anti-gun crowd is more rational and less insulting than what you've posted here.
    The truth is always rational by definition, and It's not an insult if it's true. These idiots are telling me that they should have elite privielges of self-defense that I don't have; this implies that their lives are more important than mine-- and that's about as serious an insult as you can get. If you want to sit there and take that, go ahead-- but don't expect me to.

    Likewise, only an idiot would trade liberty for security-- and that's exactly what they're doing by embracing CCW laws. But they're trying to trade MY liberty for THEIR security, to soothe their paranoid hysteria-- which is not a very good way to get into my good graces.
    Anyone with any REAL knowledge of history, knows that this is how society disarms the people in order to oppress them... obviously they either don't know, or don't care, but either way they're idiots. Like Shelly says "I feel safer if.... " well too bad, rights come before paranoia.
    Their ignorance about freedom and tyranny is so thick you can cut it with a knife; they want to give up rights, as long as it only applies to OTHER people, thinking it won't ever affect THEM-- and that's WRONG, both morally and factually.

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