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  1. #21
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    You cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you display the handgun -with intent-or malice.

    IN NY State, CPL 400-2(f) basically requires to to have the handgun concealed at all times when in public or in public view.
    Dave
    Founder,
    Rochester Personal Defense
    www.safeinrochester.com

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by RochPersDef View Post
    You cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you display the handgun -with intent-or malice.

    IN NY State, CPL 400-2(f) basically requires to to have the handgun concealed at all times when in public or in public view.
    To any NEW YORK PISTOL PERMIT HOLDER- DO NOT DISPLAY A HANDGUN EVER UNLESS IT IS FOR SELF DEFENSE. This is a recipe for disaster,You sure can be arrested for menacing.You knowingly have the gun with you.You knowingly have to keep that weapon concealed.Who taught that class OMG!

  4. #23
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    Hunter:

    I will mention that different counties in NY State put their own spin on the laws of NY State as a whole, but when I instruct the Article 35 (Justification of Defense) and other important laws of NY State, I do not instruct personal interpretations or other local flavors/variables. I teach to the NY Penal code. In the NY State Penal code, there is no violation of law if your concealed handgun were to accidentally (or otherwise without intention) become UNconcealed, yes, you may well be arrested if the LEO does not know the laws correctly, BUT unless you were actively displaying the handgun with the intent to elicit a response from others present, or if the display of the handgun was not in a lawful manner, then there is nothing you can get charged with. The situation may be uncomfortable for a while, but as there has been no violation of law, then you have not broken a law.

    Some counties will attempt to scare you or threaten you with arrest if your gun were to be seen, but that is not NY State law. It the fact that they are just anti gun (no surprise there!!) and want you to be paranoid.

    As a former LEO and a current NRA Training Counselor and Authorized Instructor for numerous pre licensing and legal doctrine classes that are approved in 8 or 10 counties all over NY State (sorry, I lost track there), I can speak to the varied interpretations of laws in different counties. I can also feel comfortable with the fact that what I have been teaching is approved and relevant according to the licensing offices and regulatory officials in those counties.

    I have found in my experience that any horror stories or other isolated experiences are either just that-isolated- or there were other mitgating circumstances such as:

    "My buddy got arrested because he had a gun in his car"

    Actually turns out to be:

    "My buddy got pulled over for driving drunk and had a gun with him. Turned out to be his third DWI and when the cops found the gun in his car, they arrested him for that too"

    But, that's just my 2 cents (3 with inflation and the deficit) on this.

    Stay safe!
    Dave
    Founder,
    Rochester Personal Defense
    www.safeinrochester.com

  5. Quote Originally Posted by RochPersDef View Post
    Hunter:

    I will mention that different counties in NY State put their own spin on the laws of NY State as a whole, but when I instruct the Article 35 (Justification of Defense) and other important laws of NY State, I do not instruct personal interpretations or other local flavors/variables. I teach to the NY Penal code. In the NY State Penal code, there is no violation of law if your concealed handgun were to accidentally (or otherwise without intention) become UNconcealed, yes, you may well be arrested if the LEO does not know the laws correctly, BUT unless you were actively displaying the handgun with the intent to elicit a response from others present, or if the display of the handgun was not in a lawful manner, then there is nothing you can get charged with. The situation may be uncomfortable for a while, but as there has been no violation of law, then you have not broken a law.

    Some counties will attempt to scare you or threaten you with arrest if your gun were to be seen, but that is not NY State law. It the fact that they are just anti gun (no surprise there!!) and want you to be paranoid.

    As a former LEO and a current NRA Training Counselor and Authorized Instructor for numerous pre licensing and legal doctrine classes that are approved in 8 or 10 counties all over NY State (sorry, I lost track there), I can speak to the varied interpretations of laws in different counties. I can also feel comfortable with the fact that what I have been teaching is approved and relevant according to the licensing offices and regulatory officials in those counties.

    I have found in my experience that any horror stories or other isolated experiences are either just that-isolated- or there were other mitgating circumstances such as:

    "My buddy got arrested because he had a gun in his car"

    Actually turns out to be:

    "My buddy got pulled over for driving drunk and had a gun with him. Turned out to be his third DWI and when the cops found the gun in his car, they arrested him for that too"

    But, that's just my 2 cents (3 with inflation and the deficit) on this.

    Stay safe!
    Did you forget the Culpable mental states that was taught in the Academy.New York Penal Law is in fact a state law not a county or local law.Menacing is placing a person in fear.The police enforce the Penal Law.I worked with many cops that would be quick to report to the licensing officer that a permit holder was carrying out of class when said person was stopped on a V&T.BTW most civilians I stopped on V&T's would make the stupidest remarks" I learned from this class I may take my gun with me because I belong to a 24 hour range"now I have no idea why you would mention that you CAN NOT BE ARRESTED FOR MENACING when you display a handgun.Some poor guy going to the range stops at a gas station a P.O. observed him walking in the store and see's the gun and collars the guy for menacing.The DA followed through no problem.The gun wasn't exposed on purpose the cop gets the number and the poor slob loses his handgun permit.Now that was a real incident here in New York.Every county in NY looks at it different.Remember police make arrest" LEO does not know law correctly" BTW don't give legal advice another important thing the police and DA won't do.Important rule to every NY pistol permit holder is get the proper training.

  6. #25
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    OK, so I am not looking to make this an argument, I am trying to point out that there are widely varying differences in NY State. Not to mention interpretations. Making a blanket statement as "anyone in NY will be arrested if their gun gets seen" is too broad a statement and could be problematic. I understand that NY City and the surrounding area is wholly different from Upstate NY, but so is Western NY vs the Albany or Northern part of the state. Heck, In some areas of the state, LEO's don't care if you carry open. Just stating what I know by experience and interviews.

    And no, I did not forget the culpability factor. That's what I mentioned earlier when I said 'with intent'

    What I said about the menacing part (look up the law too where it says "with intent") is that you cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you displayed the handgun with intent to place another person in fear for their life or harm. If there are cops and DA's arresting and prosecuting, even convicting people because their handgun was accidentally seen (not displayed on purpose such as forgetting to put your coat back on when you get out of the car to get gas) then that is a tragedy and I am glad I do not live where that happens.

    We seem to be talking two different thought patterns. You reference instances where there was a clear intent to not conceal the gun (Traffic stops and gas station) where I am referring to your coat accidentally blowing open in the wind or your shirt riding up when you reach for something on a high shelf. The difference is that one is somewhat on purpose and the other is an accident or a wardrobe malfunction.

    Yes. I relate the laws as they are written, but I do not give legal advice. I am not a lawyer, but everything I teach has been vetted and qualified by lawyers as true, correct, and prudent, and I know where the line is as I have had many discussions with DA's and judges in the areas we teach, and they all have agreed and advised me and my instructors on what is the prudent information to give and interpret and what is not.

    The discussion of state laws vs county laws vs local laws vs city vs town vs village laws and ordinances is one that will just make someone's head pop off. Because I have to have a commonality for instruction, I refer only to NY State laws and any local laws or ordinances that the DA's or Judges ask me to. I also encourage the attendees to research the laws for themselves by looking them up, contacting the local DA, or a local lawyer. This way, they have confirmed the info and learned it firsthand for themselves.

    I tell everyone in my classes that is is the utmost responsibility of yours to conceal the handgun properly. There is no 'almost' or 'good enough' there is only concealed or not. I do impress to them the possible ramifications should they forget or utilize a less then optional cover or concealment method.

    I have had many instances related to me where a handgun accidentally became visible and no police action resulted. I know, first hand, of many situations where an LEO was called to the usual "man with a gun" call and it turned out to be a case of a bad cover garment or concealment method. Was it really an accident or negligence to know that your method was inadequate? No matter. The person was not arrested, charged, convicted, etc as it was deemed an accident and no one was in fear for their life from the holstered firearm.

    But again, that's the glaring differences we have to live with and deal with being residents of the great state of NY. I've offered my thoughts and details, and I understand your thoughts and the details you offer. Thanks for the exchange of info. Feel free to email me(or PM me) if you like, I'd love to hear more of your experiences in your region. It's very interesting to learn about how places view things differently.

    I wish you well, stay safe, and enjoy.
    Dave
    Founder,
    Rochester Personal Defense
    www.safeinrochester.com

  7. Quote Originally Posted by RochPersDef View Post
    OK, so I am not looking to make this an argument, I am trying to point out that there are widely varying differences in NY State. Not to mention interpretations. Making a blanket statement as "anyone in NY will be arrested if their gun gets seen" is too broad a statement and could be problematic. I understand that NY City and the surrounding area is wholly different from Upstate NY, but so is Western NY vs the Albany or Northern part of the state. Heck, In some areas of the state, LEO's don't care if you carry open. Just stating what I know by experience and interviews.

    And no, I did not forget the culpability factor. That's what I mentioned earlier when I said 'with intent'

    What I said about the menacing part (look up the law too where it says "with intent") is that you cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you displayed the handgun with intent to place another person in fear for their life or harm. If there are cops and DA's arresting and prosecuting, even convicting people because their handgun was accidentally seen (not displayed on purpose such as forgetting to put your coat back on when you get out of the car to get gas) then that is a tragedy and I am glad I do not live where that happens.

    We seem to be talking two different thought patterns. You reference instances where there was a clear intent to not conceal the gun (Traffic stops and gas station) where I am referring to your coat accidentally blowing open in the wind or your shirt riding up when you reach for something on a high shelf. The difference is that one is somewhat on purpose and the other is an accident or a wardrobe malfunction.

    Yes. I relate the laws as they are written, but I do not give legal advice. I am not a lawyer, but everything I teach has been vetted and qualified by lawyers as true, correct, and prudent, and I know where the line is as I have had many discussions with DA's and judges in the areas we teach, and they all have agreed and advised me and my instructors on what is the prudent information to give and interpret and what is not.

    The discussion of state laws vs county laws vs local laws vs city vs town vs village laws and ordinances is one that will just make someone's head pop off. Because I have to have a commonality for instruction, I refer only to NY State laws and any local laws or ordinances that the DA's or Judges ask me to. I also encourage the attendees to research the laws for themselves by looking them up, contacting the local DA, or a local lawyer. This way, they have confirmed the info and learned it firsthand for themselves.

    I tell everyone in my classes that is is the utmost responsibility of yours to conceal the handgun properly. There is no 'almost' or 'good enough' there is only concealed or not. I do impress to them the possible ramifications should they forget or utilize a less then optional cover or concealment method.

    I have had many instances related to me where a handgun accidentally became visible and no police action resulted. I know, first hand, of many situations where an LEO was called to the usual "man with a gun" call and it turned out to be a case of a bad cover garment or concealment method. Was it really an accident or negligence to know that your method was inadequate? No matter. The person was not arrested, charged, convicted, etc as it was deemed an accident and no one was in fear for their life from the holstered firearm.

    But again, that's the glaring differences we have to live with and deal with being residents of the great state of NY. I've offered my thoughts and details, and I understand your thoughts and the details you offer. Thanks for the exchange of info. Feel free to email me(or PM me) if you like, I'd love to hear more of your experiences in your region. It's very interesting to learn about how places view things differently.

    I wish you well, stay safe, and enjoy.
    From what I'm gathering is that you have limited LE experience and live in a rural part of New York.The academy training you recieved may have been at a local college part time or weekends.My concern is that people carry responsibly and safely and not be steered in the wrong way by you that you" CAN NOT BE ARRESTED FOR MENACING"which I truly hope you haven't said in your lessons before.I have experienced many civilians while they were stopped for a traffic violation and happen to be carrying a gun on a restricted permit.As a cop safety is first because you don't know who your dealing with.I know it can get ugly quick.If you carry a gun in New York it must be concealed, even in Rural parts of NY the law applies to all.Proper training should be taught ,remember keep it concealed, Menacing is against the law!

  8. It is a class C Felony to possess a pistol or revolver or firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches with out a New York Pistol permit.New York has very strict laws and many out of state permit holders are arrested every year in New York because they thougt it was ok because they have a permit issued from their home state.

  9. It's a Class D Felony in New York for being in possesion of high capacity magazines manufactured after 1994.

  10. #29
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    Hunter: At no time have I called into question your background, training, or education, so why would you do so to mine?

    I live in Rochester and have worked in BOTH rural and urban settings. I do not have 'limited' LE ex experience as you allege. My training was done at one of the highest rated academies in the area (The Public Safety Training Center here in Rochester) and I continually train with and for LEO, military and civilian personnel. I train all over NY State and have occasion to chat with many LEO's on various subject matter, including this very one. I'll admit that I do not live in NYC or in the immediate area where the views on gun ownership and CCW are very restrictive, and I have not supposed anythign about your training or where you live as well.

    Let's get back to basics here. You have taken what I wrote and misquoted it. In my original post, I wrote:

    "You cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you display the handgun -with intent-or malice."

    You seem to keep leaving out the " with intent or malice" part when you have replied. So, for the benefit of those watching the post, I have included the entire NY Penal code section that defines the crime of menacing. Everyone please note that only Menacing in the Second Degree deals with the intentional display of a weapon.

    S 120.13 Menacing in the first degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the first degree when he or she
    commits the crime of menacing in the second degree and has been
    previously convicted of the crime of menacing in the second degree
    within the preceding ten years.
    Menacing in the first degree is a class E felony.

    S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
    1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
    in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
    by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
    be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
    2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
    conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
    placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
    physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
    3. He or she commits the crime of menacing in the third degree in
    violation of that part of a duly served order of protection, or such
    order which the defendant has actual knowledge of because he or she was
    present in court when such order was issued, pursuant to article eight
    of the family court act, section 530.12 of the criminal procedure law,
    or an order of protection issued by a court of competent jurisdiction in
    another state, territorial or tribal jurisdiction, which directed the
    respondent or defendant to stay away from the person or persons on whose
    behalf the order was issued.
    Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

    S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical
    menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another
    person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical
    injury.
    Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.

    No where in the Penal law section does it say by accident or anything similar.

    My points and discussion have all been centered around whether or not the actions of a firearm being displayed were intentional or unintended. Yes, if someone does display a firearm and another person feels threatened by that display, then someone will most likely get arrested. I fully agree.

    If there was no intent and it was an accident, meaning, that there was no active display, then that's all it is - an accident. That's like comparing someone intentionally ramming another car with their own or hitting that other car by accident. One was intentional and the other was not. Yes, someone's going to be cuffed and stuffed in the first case, and in the second, probably not - unless they were doing so by intent.

    So....if a motorist gets stopped for a traffic infraction, and they are not concealing their handgun, they could indeed be subject to arrest if the officer/deputy/trooper saw it necessary and if it were warranted. It does not mean that they will, without a doubt, be arrested and charged. That's like telling everyone if you drive over the speed limit you will get a ticket.

    If someone gets out of their car for any reason, and they did not put their coat/jacket/long shirt/whatever back on to cover their firearm because they did not want to, then yes, they could be subject to arrest if someone complained, felt threatened, or if a LEO saw them and felt it necessary to do so.

    Both situations included a clear intent to not conceal the handgun and there are consequences to those actions - possibly.

    In a case where the coat/shirt/whatever is blown open by a gust of wind, or rides up from sitting, or is pulled open when reaching for a wallet....that is an accident. No intent, no malice, no anything other than a purely accidental occurrence.

    Don't get me wrong, I do tell people to do whatever you can to keep the handgun concealed at all times. It is your duty to not let anyone know you have a gun. Period. BUT I also tell them that a simple mistake may not cause you a headache, or it could. You never know. I try to get them to think about it and hope they never find out.


    I've said my piece, offered my information, and had fun discussing this. But I will not get drawn into a posting argument. It just will not do any good.

    Thank you for your information, I hope that the viewers enjoyed our exchange of ideas and thoughts. I will be the one that offer the idea that we probably should agree to disagree and we can leave it at that.

    Take care
    Dave
    Founder,
    Rochester Personal Defense
    www.safeinrochester.com

  11. Quote Originally Posted by RochPersDef View Post
    Hunter: At no time have I called into question your background, training, or education, so why would you do so to mine?

    I live in Rochester and have worked in BOTH rural and urban settings. I do not have 'limited' LE ex experience as you allege. My training was done at one of the highest rated academies in the area (The Public Safety Training Center here in Rochester) and I continually train with and for LEO, military and civilian personnel. I train all over NY State and have occasion to chat with many LEO's on various subject matter, including this very one. I'll admit that I do not live in NYC or in the immediate area where the views on gun ownership and CCW are very restrictive, and I have not supposed anythign about your training or where you live as well.

    Let's get back to basics here. You have taken what I wrote and misquoted it. In my original post, I wrote:

    "You cannot be arrested for Menacing unless you display the handgun -with intent-or malice."

    You seem to keep leaving out the " with intent or malice" part when you have replied. So, for the benefit of those watching the post, I have included the entire NY Penal code section that defines the crime of menacing. Everyone please note that only Menacing in the Second Degree deals with the intentional display of a weapon.

    S 120.13 Menacing in the first degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the first degree when he or she
    commits the crime of menacing in the second degree and has been
    previously convicted of the crime of menacing in the second degree
    within the preceding ten years.
    Menacing in the first degree is a class E felony.

    S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
    1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
    in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
    by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
    be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or
    2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
    conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
    placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
    physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
    3. He or she commits the crime of menacing in the third degree in
    violation of that part of a duly served order of protection, or such
    order which the defendant has actual knowledge of because he or she was
    present in court when such order was issued, pursuant to article eight
    of the family court act, section 530.12 of the criminal procedure law,
    or an order of protection issued by a court of competent jurisdiction in
    another state, territorial or tribal jurisdiction, which directed the
    respondent or defendant to stay away from the person or persons on whose
    behalf the order was issued.
    Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

    S 120.15 Menacing in the third degree.
    A person is guilty of menacing in the third degree when, by physical
    menace, he or she intentionally places or attempts to place another
    person in fear of death, imminent serious physical injury or physical
    injury.
    Menacing in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.

    No where in the Penal law section does it say by accident or anything similar.

    My points and discussion have all been centered around whether or not the actions of a firearm being displayed were intentional or unintended. Yes, if someone does display a firearm and another person feels threatened by that display, then someone will most likely get arrested. I fully agree.

    If there was no intent and it was an accident, meaning, that there was no active display, then that's all it is - an accident. That's like comparing someone intentionally ramming another car with their own or hitting that other car by accident. One was intentional and the other was not. Yes, someone's going to be cuffed and stuffed in the first case, and in the second, probably not - unless they were doing so by intent.

    So....if a motorist gets stopped for a traffic infraction, and they are not concealing their handgun, they could indeed be subject to arrest if the officer/deputy/trooper saw it necessary and if it were warranted. It does not mean that they will, without a doubt, be arrested and charged. That's like telling everyone if you drive over the speed limit you will get a ticket.

    If someone gets out of their car for any reason, and they did not put their coat/jacket/long shirt/whatever back on to cover their firearm because they did not want to, then yes, they could be subject to arrest if someone complained, felt threatened, or if a LEO saw them and felt it necessary to do so.

    Both situations included a clear intent to not conceal the handgun and there are consequences to those actions - possibly.

    In a case where the coat/shirt/whatever is blown open by a gust of wind, or rides up from sitting, or is pulled open when reaching for a wallet....that is an accident. No intent, no malice, no anything other than a purely accidental occurrence.

    Don't get me wrong, I do tell people to do whatever you can to keep the handgun concealed at all times. It is your duty to not let anyone know you have a gun. Period. BUT I also tell them that a simple mistake may not cause you a headache, or it could. You never know. I try to get them to think about it and hope they never find out.


    I've said my piece, offered my information, and had fun discussing this. But I will not get drawn into a posting argument. It just will not do any good.

    Thank you for your information, I hope that the viewers enjoyed our exchange of ideas and thoughts. I will be the one that offer the idea that we probably should agree to disagree and we can leave it at that.

    Take care
    Damage control "display a handgun placing a person in fear".Displaying a gun by accident is no excuse.Ignorance is no excuse.Remember you still well be arrested and lose your gun for an accident.You still can't give legal advice by simply saying that it requires to meet intent & malice for an arrest to be made.Complainant states they were in fear for life after the defendant was observed displaying a silver metal colored pistol while in a public place.The source being the attached statement given by complainant.

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