Vacationing w/ NYS Licensed guns/LGA Airport hijynx - IMPORTANT
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Thread: Vacationing w/ NYS Licensed guns/LGA Airport hijynx - IMPORTANT

  1. Question Vacationing w/ NYS Licensed guns/LGA Airport hijynx - IMPORTANT

    OK - here is a problem that could only arise in New York. As far as I can tell the NYSRPA and NRA have little to no commentary on this issue and it could prove to be a big problem based upon a recent Court decision handed down AND upheld by the 1st Department in our fine freedom loving state.

    Now this didn't happen to me - it happened to a little birdie like this (nothing bad happened) (Please take the time to read and respond - this has to be taken care of one way or the other).

    Little birdie has a Nassau County Target license with range/hunting endorsement - one regular handgun on the license - nothing exotic. Little birdie has Florida and Connecticut permits. Little birdie has to fly to a midwest state which honors both the NY permit and the FL permit. Little birdie properly packs and locks firearms pursuant to TSA regulations and goes to LaGuardia for a direct flight (not Chicago) to a large city with no legal restrictions, etc.

    Little birdie declares his locked box at the airline counter and the agent says the Port Authority police have to inspect the box. Young PA cop comes over and asks what type of gun - pistol. Asks for pistol license and drivers license - he gets them. He bangs a code into his radio and two other PA cops show up. They start looking at all birdie's permits - they are talking back and forth to one another - They are being very nice and professional but birdie is wondering what the hell was going on. They state that the carry permit is good to and from a range only and the airport is not the range. Birdie responds that he is going to shoot at his destination. The three of them go back and forth several times - they were all young and it looked like they had never seen a pistol permit of any kind before. They asked if the license was good at the destination and birdie says yes by agreement of the Reciprocal Agreement of the Attorney General - The oldest one then says everything looks good because birdie is in transit - they lock the box, send it through and shake birdie's hand. Birdie got no parting warnings about not to do it again - what birdie was doing was illegal per state law, etc. [Birdie did find out that New York City residents showing up with un-City permitted long arms are getting the 9th degree and maybe being busted - NRA and NYSPRA should be dealing with this but as near as I can tell they are not]

    Now - birdie thought they were just being careful but now birdie's friend, me, has been checking up - A recent New York City decision upheld by the 1st Department with leave to goto the Court of Appeals denied - may have just written a precedent in there that may, down the road, phuck all of us out of the right to go out of state with New York State licensed handguns.

    Witness the following Court decision rendered in our favor by Supreme Court, New York County:

    "Respondent argues that petitioner's premises resident license did not authorize him to "carry" a handgun in New York, and thus the federal statute does not apply. It states that he used poor judgment in carrying his pistol to Nevada because he never received a definitive answer from it as to whether or not he was permitted to do so. Respondent contends that this error in judgment, combined with his two previous incidents, was a rational reason to deny his license. As opposed to some other states, New York requires a specific carry license for both the open and concealed carrying of firearms. (See Bach v Pataki, 408 F3d 75 [2d Cir 2005].) On the other hand, New York law permits holders of a premises resident pistol license to transport a handgun in a locked container to and from small arms ranges/shooting clubs and specified hunting locations. 38 RCNY 5-23 [a] [1]-[4].) Thus, although named a "premise" license, it allows for transportation of handguns under some circumstances."

    The rationale that the gun could still be carried off the premises to a range was "carry" enough to invoke FOPA. The full opinion (but not the appeal overturning it) is available on NYSRPA's website.

    The appeal, which is a f'ing disaster, reads in pertinent part as follows:

    ""It is not necessary to permit holders of premises residence firearms licenses to transport guns to another state in order to harmonize the law of this State with the provisions of FOPA. Section 926A permits a licensee, in certain circumstances, to transport a firearm "from any place where [***114] he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm." Where the licensee is not permitted by the terms of the license to lawfully carry the firearm at the time he embarks on a trip to another state, FOPA is inapplicable.
    "Moreover, petitioner testified at the administrative hearing that he had been informed by personnel of the License Division that he was not permitted to take his gun to Nevada without written permission from the Division. He chose to disregard this advice and follow his own interpretation of the law. The agency's determination that petitioner violated the terms of his premises residence firearms license was not arbitrary and capricious.""


    Now think about that - I cant 'carry' my gun in New York City but for a lock box with no stops - does this mean County licensing agencies can revoke permits on the basis that taking the gun to LaGuardia airport to go on a trip in or out of state is not permitted and a license violation??? Have New Yorkers vacationing, handgun hunting and pistol shooting in the Poconos for the past 50 years been violating their permits??

    This got me to check more - I went back and looked at Nassau's pistol license handbook - nothing about going out of state in it - nothing permitting it - nothing restricting it. Nassau doesnt issue residence permits anyway. Counties upstate with online material - nothing about it. ALL EXCEPT FOR SUFFOLK - which in the license FAQ section (this is written in true lawyerly bullchit fashion) has the following Q&A

    Q - Can I take my pistol with me when vacationing?
    A - This is a difficult question to answer. It all depends on where you are going, what you intend to do, and the type of pistol license you have, other than for hunting upstate, 99% of the time the answer is no.

    OK can anyone here make sense of that 3 dollar bill ********? It says nothing about instate, out of state, target shooting, etc.


    NOW - the meat of the issue - if the issue is pressed with the licensing authorities we may very well get a ruling that says that the permit (which is administrative in nature) does not authorize carrying a handgun beyond state lines regardless of what the other state's laws are. Can you see the angle little rats like Bloomburg and Kelly's minions in other counties could pull with this? WIth so many of us licensed to carry all over the country - a simple administrative slight of hand makes all that worthless.

    Does anyone have a handle on this? Does anyone have any opinion or is simply up in the air with no one daring to make it an issue? After birdie's experience at LGA I think Birdie will be flying from Newark or driving from now on?

    Somene throw me a line here.

  2.   
  3. One other thing - the appellate division's decision could be read two ways that dont necessarily hurt us - first - the petitioner disobeyed the Pistol Division which, as per the Court, stated to him explicitly that he could not take his gun to Las Vegas. Disobeying an administrative agent is certain death upon judicial review. Based upon this decision I am hesitate to call any county pistol division for fear of what they would say.

    Also, the petitioner was not going out west to target shoot or hunt, which ostensibly would have brought him into line with the conditions on this permit and the petitioner had two other license issues prior to the third one.

    But what I am saying here is that we cant rely on FOPA to get to the airport anymore and I dont want to officially loose my ability to train at Gunsite, or shoot recreationally on private property in PA? - much less carry where I can?>>

    UGH

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeBeDoomed View Post
    One other thing - the appellate division's decision could be read two ways that dont necessarily hurt us - first - the petitioner disobeyed the Pistol Division which, as per the Court, stated to him explicitly that he could not take his gun to Las Vegas. Disobeying an administrative agent is certain death upon judicial review. Based upon this decision I am hesitate to call any county pistol division for fear of what they would say.

    Also, the petitioner was not going out west to target shoot or hunt, which ostensibly would have brought him into line with the conditions on this permit and the petitioner had two other license issues prior to the third one.

    But what I am saying here is that we cant rely on FOPA to get to the airport anymore and I dont want to officially loose my ability to train at Gunsite, or shoot recreationally on private property in PA? - much less carry where I can?>>

    UGH
    As a friend of mine always say's, "It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission".

    But New York is a great place not to live or visit.
    Maybejim

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member CRPA
    Life Member SASS

    What you say isn't as important as what the other person hears

  5. It is not the permit that is administrative in nature. It is the restrictions placed upon it by Nassau and Suffolk Counties that is administrative.

    I just dont see the travel issue here if you are traveling from a place you may posses it to another place you may possess it.

  6. Nassau & Suffolk Target/Sportsman

    Quote Originally Posted by WeBeDoomed View Post
    OK - here is a problem that could only arise in New York. As far as I can tell the NYSRPA and NRA have little to no commentary on this issue and it could prove to be a big problem based upon a recent Court decision handed down AND upheld by the 1st Department in our fine freedom loving state.

    Now this didn't happen to me - it happened to a little birdie like this (nothing bad happened) (Please take the time to read and respond - this has to be taken care of one way or the other).

    Little birdie has a Nassau County Target license with range/hunting endorsement - one regular handgun on the license - nothing exotic. Little birdie has Florida and Connecticut permits. Little birdie has to fly to a midwest state which honors both the NY permit and the FL permit. Little birdie properly packs and locks firearms pursuant to TSA regulations and goes to LaGuardia for a direct flight (not Chicago) to a large city with no legal restrictions, etc.

    Little birdie declares his locked box at the airline counter and the agent says the Port Authority police have to inspect the box. Young PA cop comes over and asks what type of gun - pistol. Asks for pistol license and drivers license - he gets them. He bangs a code into his radio and two other PA cops show up. They start looking at all birdie's permits - they are talking back and forth to one another - They are being very nice and professional but birdie is wondering what the hell was going on. They state that the carry permit is good to and from a range only and the airport is not the range. Birdie responds that he is going to shoot at his destination. The three of them go back and forth several times - they were all young and it looked like they had never seen a pistol permit of any kind before. They asked if the license was good at the destination and birdie says yes by agreement of the Reciprocal Agreement of the Attorney General - The oldest one then says everything looks good because birdie is in transit - they lock the box, send it through and shake birdie's hand. Birdie got no parting warnings about not to do it again - what birdie was doing was illegal per state law, etc. [Birdie did find out that New York City residents showing up with un-City permitted long arms are getting the 9th degree and maybe being busted - NRA and NYSPRA should be dealing with this but as near as I can tell they are not]

    Now - birdie thought they were just being careful but now birdie's friend, me, has been checking up - A recent New York City decision upheld by the 1st Department with leave to goto the Court of Appeals denied - may have just written a precedent in there that may, down the road, phuck all of us out of the right to go out of state with New York State licensed handguns.

    Witness the following Court decision rendered in our favor by Supreme Court, New York County:

    "Respondent argues that petitioner's premises resident license did not authorize him to "carry" a handgun in New York, and thus the federal statute does not apply. It states that he used poor judgment in carrying his pistol to Nevada because he never received a definitive answer from it as to whether or not he was permitted to do so. Respondent contends that this error in judgment, combined with his two previous incidents, was a rational reason to deny his license. As opposed to some other states, New York requires a specific carry license for both the open and concealed carrying of firearms. (See Bach v Pataki, 408 F3d 75 [2d Cir 2005].) On the other hand, New York law permits holders of a premises resident pistol license to transport a handgun in a locked container to and from small arms ranges/shooting clubs and specified hunting locations. 38 RCNY 5-23 [a] [1]-[4].) Thus, although named a "premise" license, it allows for transportation of handguns under some circumstances."

    The rationale that the gun could still be carried off the premises to a range was "carry" enough to invoke FOPA. The full opinion (but not the appeal overturning it) is available on NYSRPA's website.

    The appeal, which is a f'ing disaster, reads in pertinent part as follows:

    ""It is not necessary to permit holders of premises residence firearms licenses to transport guns to another state in order to harmonize the law of this State with the provisions of FOPA. Section 926A permits a licensee, in certain circumstances, to transport a firearm "from any place where [***114] he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm." Where the licensee is not permitted by the terms of the license to lawfully carry the firearm at the time he embarks on a trip to another state, FOPA is inapplicable.
    "Moreover, petitioner testified at the administrative hearing that he had been informed by personnel of the License Division that he was not permitted to take his gun to Nevada without written permission from the Division. He chose to disregard this advice and follow his own interpretation of the law. The agency's determination that petitioner violated the terms of his premises residence firearms license was not arbitrary and capricious.""


    Now think about that - I cant 'carry' my gun in New York City but for a lock box with no stops - does this mean County licensing agencies can revoke permits on the basis that taking the gun to LaGuardia airport to go on a trip in or out of state is not permitted and a license violation??? Have New Yorkers vacationing, handgun hunting and pistol shooting in the Poconos for the past 50 years been violating their permits??

    This got me to check more - I went back and looked at Nassau's pistol license handbook - nothing about going out of state in it - nothing permitting it - nothing restricting it. Nassau doesnt issue residence permits anyway. Counties upstate with online material - nothing about it. ALL EXCEPT FOR SUFFOLK - which in the license FAQ section (this is written in true lawyerly bullchit fashion) has the following Q&A

    Q - Can I take my pistol with me when vacationing?
    A - This is a difficult question to answer. It all depends on where you are going, what you intend to do, and the type of pistol license you have, other than for hunting upstate, 99% of the time the answer is no.

    OK can anyone here make sense of that 3 dollar bill ********? It says nothing about instate, out of state, target shooting, etc.


    NOW - the meat of the issue - if the issue is pressed with the licensing authorities we may very well get a ruling that says that the permit (which is administrative in nature) does not authorize carrying a handgun beyond state lines regardless of what the other state's laws are. Can you see the angle little rats like Bloomburg and Kelly's minions in other counties could pull with this? WIth so many of us licensed to carry all over the country - a simple administrative slight of hand makes all that worthless.

    Does anyone have a handle on this? Does anyone have any opinion or is simply up in the air with no one daring to make it an issue? After birdie's experience at LGA I think Birdie will be flying from Newark or driving from now on?

    Somene throw me a line here.
    Your first thing is call the airport.Most airport cops don't know permits.If you were stopped on the road while in NYC by HWY patrol good chance they won't bother asking you about a gun they just want to write you a ticket.Unless you insist your permit would be revoked for violating the terms of your license.Best thing is call ahead if your flying and by the way Pennsylvania doesn't recognize your NY permit if its a target permit it must be unrestricted and than you must apply for a CCW in PA to carry a gun from NY.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
    by the way Pennsylvania doesn't recognize your NY permit if its a target permit it must be unrestricted and than you must apply for a CCW in PA to carry a gun from NY.
    Not 100% true, I have a PA full carry Lis. and I have a target restriction on my NYS permit. You just have to apply to the right sheriff

  8. #7
    I also have restrictions on my permit and have a full carry PA permit. Before I applied I wrote the sheriff a letter and he responded that a restricted permit was ok.

  9. PA county approved a non-res CCW w/NY restricted permit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevins9145 View Post
    Not 100% true, I have a PA full carry Lis. and I have a target restriction on my NYS permit. You just have to apply to the right sheriff
    You must have been very lucky.The county my friend applied for denied him a CCW because his Sullivan County NY permit had restrictions placed.He waited over two years and applied for an upgrade and the restrictions were lifted.He applied in PA and was issued a non-resident CCW and applied in Florida and now can carry in more than 20 states.

  10. #9
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    Mar 2009
    Location
    Nassau, NY/ Boston MA
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    It all depends on what county you apply to. Some counties understand that NY is technically is CC, while others wont. Originally I wanted to get my PA permit in Monroe because that is where my father lives, but Monroe wont do full carry if your home permit is restricted. Many of the people that have PA permits including myself have applied to Centre County because they will issue a Non restricted permit.

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