America: Graduating from God? by Chuck Norris - Page 3
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Thread: America: Graduating from God? by Chuck Norris

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    So much to comment on, so little time. Just these two points: 1) A local school, reflecting the will of the local people, which constructs, say a Nativity scene at Christmas, is NOT passing a law; and 2) I cannot see how one could effectively argue that the Framers intent was a "public sphere...free of institutional religiosity". There is just too much argument otherwise by the Founders themselves to suggest this.

    I'll say this for Cathy: unlike some of our other atheist brethren (sistren?) she, so far, argues her point of view without disrespecting or belittling those of us who profess faith in the Almighty. Well done.
    Perhaps I did not sufficiently specify which institutions are not allowed to exhibit religiosity... THEY'RE GOVERNMENT ONES! They are the only ones not allowed to exhibit "institutional religiosity" as I coined that phrase. If you want to go across the street from the court house to the Woolworth outlet store where the institution of Woolworth's exhibits religiosity of a Christmas display every year, that display of institutional religiosity is just fine.

    You want to go down the street to the United Method of Christ Church where their front lawn is bedecked with a live-action nativity scene every year for the two weeks before Christmas, that display of institutional religiosity is just fine.

    You go the other direction where the Mews at Windsor Heights gated community has a giant Christmas light display spelling out, "Jesus is the Reason for the Season", that display of institutional religiosity is just fine, as long as HOAs don't assume the mantel of government in their operations.

    You want to go across town to old man Wicker's house, the retired dentist where he, with help from the local Jewish community, puts up a lifesized Menorah on his front lawn every December in full view of the Townsville Public School, that display of individual religiosity is just fine.

    So I ask you, where in this is the war against Christmas? Is it because the Townsville Public School is forbidden to hoist a Christmas tree? Is it because the Townsville Courthouse can't erect a 10' limestone slab with the 10 commandments engraved on it? Get over yourselves, and go celebrate Christmas. No one is trying to stop you.

    CW&M: I think if you reread some of my examples, you'll find that some of the examples you used of Acts Not in Accord with Christian Faith, are examples of an establishment of religion that I came down against as well.

    As for whatever Alaska444 said, I never saw it. Since he informed me that I should embrace religiosity/faith before giving short shrift to reason/intellect, he's been on my ignore list.

    All government institutions in America must be welcoming of all citizens who have business before them. If a Sikh were to walk into the DMV and there was a Menorah in the middle of the room, they might feel less than welcomed, like their was an established Jewish religion in that government office. If a Muslim were to walk into a police station and there was a voodoo altar in the lobby, they might feel less than welcomed, like there was an established Santeria religion in that government office. If a Jew were to walk into a court house and there was a pentagram and black candles burning around it on the floor, they might feel less than welcomed, like there was an established Satanism religion in that government office.

    Why then do you want the accoutrement of Christianity in public schools, other than to make Atheist students feel less than welcomed?

    Yes, America is to be a religious blank slate, but that does not mean you can't paint whatever religion you want to on your parts of America, but those parts of America common to everyone must remain blank. These restrictions are to protect everyone, even Christians. Story time...

    A public school had a large enough student body and supporting community that it could support a community magazine published by the students at the school. It had news of the school and community to keep everyone appraised of the goings on. It had creative writing from the students. It had a community calendar of upcoming events at the school and in the community. And then, an area church wanted to buy advertizing space for an upcoming church function.

    Now, because it was a public school publication, they couldn't play favourites. Either all churches and religious organizations could advertize, or none of them could. In this case, they had the by-law that no advertizing of religious events at all, so the advertizing was rebuffed. As you can imagine, the religious community centering around that church was incensed that they were not able to advertize in their public school community magazine, and they set out to do something about that.

    At the next school board election, they packed the polls to elect their members to the board and succeeded in taking control of the school board, and one of their first acts was to amend the by-laws for the student magazine to permit religious advertizing, over the vociferous opposition of the remaining school board members and predictions of unintended consequences. It was their school. It was their magazine. They would do with it what they wanted.

    And so for months, the church advertized their own goings on in the magazine, and a few other area churches joined in, but that was fine. Now, as I mentioned, it was a large community, large enough to support a Wiccan community, and they had a desire to advertize their upcoming Summer Solstice celebration, and so submitted their ad to the Magazine's editorial board, which, not having any grounds on which to ban religious advertizing, published it in the next issue.

    Well, if the Christian school board usurpers were incensed when they couldn't advertize their events, they were apoplectic when a bunch of... WITCHES! advertized theirs. Problem was, the Christians had made it possible for the Wiccans to advertize. In the ensuing row over religious advertizing, the Christians who had taken over the school board were ousted and replaced, and the by-law agaisnt religious advertizing in the student magazine was restored.

    The moral of the story, be careful what you ask for... "in a Christian Nation"... you just might get it.

    Oh, and is it because I'm a woman, an Atheist, or literate? Whenever I write extemporaneously, I get accused of copy-and-paste from another source.
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  2.   
  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by CathyInBlue View Post
    Perhaps I did not sufficiently specify which institutions are not allowed to exhibit religiosity... THEY'RE GOVERNMENT ONES! They are the only ones not allowed to exhibit "institutional religiosity" as I coined that phrase. If you want to go across the street from the court house to the Woolworth outlet store where the institution of Woolworth's exhibits religiosity of a Christmas display every year, that display of institutional religiosity is just fine.

    You want to go down the street to the United Methodist Church where their front lawn is bedecked with a live-action nativity scene every year for the two weeks before Christmas, that display of institutional religiosity is just fine.

    You go the other direction where the Mews at Windsor Heights gated community has a giant Christmas light display spelling out, "Jesus is the Reason for the Season", that display of institutional religiosity is just fine, as long as HOAs don't assume the mantel of government in their operations.

    You want to go across town to old man Wicker's house, the retired dentist where he, with help from the local Jewish community, puts up a lifesized Menorah on his front lawn every December in full view of the Townsville Public School, that display of individual religiosity is just fine.

    So I ask you, where in this is the war against Christmas? Is it because the Townsville Public School is forbidden to hoist a Christmas tree? is it because the Townsville Courthouse can't erect a 10' limestone slab with the 10 commandments engraved on it? Get over yourselves, and go celebrate Christmas. No one is trying to stop you.
    I know the difference between "government institutions" and private ones. I'm specifically referring to the public school as an institution, here, as you devoted considerable verbiage to that issue. My argument is that if a local public school's constituents (i.e., the People) are, in the majority, in favor of, say, a prayer led by a school official at the Friday nite football game, then I see no Constitutional problem with that. This isn't Congress, and no law is being enacted. Now, it might offend some politically-correct sensibilities, but TS, I couldn't care less about that.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    My argument is that if a local public school's constituents (i.e., the People) are, in the majority, in favor of, say, a prayer
    Noboy's voting on this, majority or otherwise:
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative Wife & Mom View Post
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
    It was decided a long time ago. Problem is you nuevo-Christian activists want to keep changing or ignoring the rules in your favor. Which part of "public school" don't you understand? Public or school?

    As a veritable extension of local government supported with tax dollars provided by all citizens, no one group has any more right than another to do anything with regard to religious intent. None. Period.

    As CIB has already stated: Deal with it.

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocked _and_Locked View Post
    Noboy's voting on this, majority or otherwise:

    It was already decided a long time ago. Problem is you nuevo-Christian activists always want to change the rules in your favor. Which part of "public school" don't you inderstand? Public or school?

    As a veritable extension of local government supported with tax dollars provided by all citizens, no one group had any more right than another to do anything with regard to religious intent. None. Period.

    As CIB has alreday stated: Deal with it.
    Where the hell is this in the Constitution?
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    Where the hell is this in the Constitution?
    Asked and answered. It's the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, backed up by incorporation against the States, from which the schools get their authority to coerce attendance, by the 14th Amendment.

    What you described, the parents of the students getting together and voting on what the school should do, has a name... private school. And hey, if a private school supported by private funds wants to demand that all of its students pray a Christian prayer three times a day and go to Christian church services on Sunday and Wednesday, and if a Hindu student protests, he can GTFO if he doesn't like it, then great, mazeltov. More power to you, but you and they can do that without tax funds from the whole state.

    Once you're talking about public schools paid for by tax dollars where a student cannot so easily extricate himself from such oppression, you're done. No more school institutional religiosity for you.
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  7. #26
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    Hopefully still OT, but a school funding issue cropping up here locally lately (and probably elsewhere in the country I'm sure), has been so-called "charter schools" vying for district funding while at the same time claiming exemption for everything from cirriculum standards to you-guessed-it: prayer.

    These quasi-private schools have a horrendous record of failing the kids in quality of education, facilities, extra cirrcular activities, etc, etc. But they damn sure want their piece of the money pie, their way - the "Christian" way.

    Just another example of this issue "gone wrong" in the process of Christian rule bending.

  8. #27
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    They might get away with not doing things that other public schools have to do, but generally, the prohibition follows the tax money.
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  9. As for whatever Alaska444 said, I never saw it. Since he informed me that I should embrace religiosity/faith before giving short shrift to reason/intellect, he's been on my ignore list.
    Glad that I have made Cathy's ignore list. However, she once again mischaracterized my statement to her when we were talking about evolution and that is why she rejects faith. Her problem is not understanding that evolution is not based on facts, it is based on faith that evolution must have happened. I simply and correctly replied that she didn't choose well. Perhaps someday she will, but not likely if she completely closes her mind to the possibility of the truth of the Bible. I never ever said to ignore reason whatsoever or intellect. Cathy simply fails to understand that the Bible and reason and intellect are completely compatible. In fact, it was through reason and intellect that I gained my faith.

    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

    As far as knowing what the framers of our constitution believed about the 10 amendments, we in fact have copious opinions of theirs from their writings on these subjects during the debate to enact and adopt the Bill of Rights. Anyone interested in knowing what they thought about these issues can go and read it for themselves.

    What the libs today fail to understand is that there was a wall of separation from the government influencing the church which has been broken down widely, but initially there was absolutely no wall of Christian expression and even worship in our government institutions. The only prohibition was to establish what we would call a denomination over the other denominations as in Europe. This very much was a Christian nation for the majority of its short life, at least until the 1960's.

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Glad that I have made Cathy's ignore list. However, she once again mischaracterized my statement to her when we were talking about evolution and that is why she rejects faith. Her problem is not understanding that evolution is not based on facts, it is based on faith that evolution must have happened. I simply and correctly replied that she didn't choose well. Perhaps someday she will, but not likely if she completely closes her mind to the possibility of the truth of the Bible. I never ever said to ignore reason whatsoever or intellect. Cathy simply fails to understand that the Bible and reason and intellect are completely compatible. In fact, it was through reason and intellect that I gained my faith.

    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

    As far as knowing what the framers of our constitution believed about the 10 amendments, we in fact have copious opinions of theirs from their writings on these subjects during the debate to enact and adopt the Bill of Rights. Anyone interested in knowing what they thought about these issues can go and read it for themselves.
    What the libs today fail to understand is that there was a wall of separation from the government influencing the church which has been broken down widely, but initially there was absolutely no wall of Christian expression and even worship in our government institutions. The only prohibition was to establish what we would call a denomination over the other denominations as in Europe. This very much was a Christian nation for the majority of its short life, at least until the 1960's.
    Atheists aren't interested in the copious opinions of the Founders, that's obvious.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  11. Dear JJ, they don't seem to remember all of the lyrics to the national anthem as well:

    Tea Party Member STUNS CROWD - Worth Reading

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