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  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    What is with the racist flag in the back window of that PU?

    psst,,,the south didn't win.
    Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

    If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

    Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!
    Never argue with an idiot. First they drag you down to their level then they beat you with experience!

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  3. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
    Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

    If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

    Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!
    Dang straight. And it may not be over, yet. The issue of states rights is again coming to the fore.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    Please quote your sources regarding these violent people.
    It varies from source to source most agree on the radical 100,000,000 ball park number as they each have different figures on just what the world total of Muslims are out there, but here have fun reading....

    The “Tiny Percentage” of Radical Islamists ? Pursuing Holiness
    Documentary Exposes Radical Muslim Rhetoric
    The American Conservative -- Radical Islam Rising
    What percentage of Muslims around the world believes in Radical Militant Islam?

    If you would like to see them there are a heap more out there...... Just google it.....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  5. #74
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    The Confederate Battle Flag in the past few decades has been waved by some very evil racist groups. The flag represents the Confederate States of America and the proud nation that once was. It is part of the culture, history, and heritage of the South. Many religious symbols have also been associated with hate groups. Should we also ban the cross? Lee and most of the Generals in the South did not own slaves or feel they were fighting the war over slavery. Lee and Jackson were gentleman and fine Christian Soldiers who were fighting in "The War of Northern Aggression". Lee and the rest of his men would not be in any of the hate groups of today. It is a crime that such a great & noble flag has become a symbol of hate & racism to so many people. Do not think of this flag as a symbol of racial hate but as noble symbol of a past when a proud Southern Military existed. Do not ban the Confederate Battle Flag because hate groups wave it at rallies. The flag is not the problem!! Hate and racism is the problem. The flag has nothing to with hate and everything to do with a proud Southern History.

  6. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster20 View Post
    The Confederate Battle Flag in the past few decades has been waved by some very evil racist groups. The flag represents the Confederate States of America and the proud nation that once was. It is part of the culture, history, and heritage of the South. Many religious symbols have also been associated with hate groups. Should we also ban the cross? Lee and most of the Generals in the South did not own slaves or feel they were fighting the war over slavery. Lee and Jackson were gentleman and fine Christian Soldiers who were fighting in "The War of Northern Aggression". Lee and the rest of his men would not be in any of the hate groups of today. It is a crime that such a great & noble flag has become a symbol of hate & racism to so many people. Do not think of this flag as a symbol of racial hate but as noble symbol of a past when a proud Southern Military existed. Do not ban the Confederate Battle Flag because hate groups wave it at rallies. The flag is not the problem!! Hate and racism is the problem. The flag has nothing to with hate and everything to do with a proud Southern History.
    It is very unfortunate when a hate group takes up a symbol and uses it hence tainting it foreaver... Case in point the Nazi swastika was used by the early American Indians as a good luck charm, as had other society's, but it will be forever tainted by Hitler and his evil....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
    "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Father John Corapi.

  7. #76
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    OK... One more post... That's it...

    It is human misinterpretation and visual association that is the cause for the misunderstanding.

    Case in point... When you look at this image what do you see?



    In India, swastika have been around since 3000 B.C. Their direction is clockwise and anticlockwise. In both directions they have a different meaning. For Buddhists, Hindus and Dschanists the Swastika is a sacred symbol, comparable with the Cross for the Christians or the Star of David in Judaism.

    Peace...
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  8. #77
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    The arguments...

    Here are the most commone arguments against the Confederate flag. It is astonishing how the liberal media and the public (socialist) school system have effectively polluted the minds of so many!!

    Argument #1

    Argument
    "Since the Ku Klux Klan fly the Confederate flag, it has become a symbol of hatred, racism and intolerance. We cannot let our state (or school or whatever) project an image of racism by flying a
    Confederate battle flag or something that contains the Confederate battle flag."

    First, many in the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) do not fly the Confederate battle flag. In fact, only a small number actually use a Confederate flag. However, the KKK bylaws require the U.S. flag and
    the Christian flag to be present at every event. Most people are not aware that the largest KKK membership is in the North and it has been that way since the early 1900s.Pennsylvania has one of the largest K.K.K. memberships in the U.S., followed by California. Are either one of these Southern States? I think not! As a matter of fact, both were Yankee states during the War Between The States. Mr. Boyd Lewis, a Klan expert who spoke at DeKalb College in Atlanta, states that at the height of Klan power, "Indiana had the largest Klan population with over 2 million members between 1915-1916," (71). Most KKK groups prefer to use a U.S. flag or a Christian flag, yet oddly enough, no one is calling for the permanent censorship of those symbols!

    Americans have been programmed, by the liberal media, into believing that the KKK is only a "Southern Thing" and that only Southern symbols must pay for the Klan's transgressions. A
    free-lance photographer and friend once related with frustration at how the newspapers never buy or use his photographs if they show the Klan carrying a U.S. flag. "They only want to use the photographs that show a Confederate flag." Based on the magnitude of media bias that would have us believe the Confederate flag and the Klan go hand-in-hand, although incorrect, it is understandable why people have the perceptions they do. However, those perceptions are based
    on false information, and it is the perception that must be changed, not the symbol that has been victimized by the perception.
    At one time, man had the perception that the earth was flat. This was because his eyes were giving his brain false information, which was also fed by the many stories told and retold by sailors at sea.
    However, once we acquired accurate geographical information, we were forced to change our perception and accept the fact that the earth was not flat, but round. We must likewise change our false perceptions of Confederate symbols as being symbols of the Klan, when it truth, they are not.

    Second, the use of a symbol by a person or group, does not convey the characteristics of that person or group to that symbol. For example, Malcolm X and the nation of Islam were indisputably, the black equivalent of David Duke and the Klan. Both lived and preached racial hatred. Both claimed to have found religion and converted. If the Confederate flag symbolizes the Klan's white racism against blacks, then we must interpret the "X" of Malcolm X, emblazoned on the clothes of many black consumers, as being symbolic of Malcolm X's black racism against whites. Intolerance of one symbol insures the intolerance of the other.

    Argument #2

    Argument:
    "Confederate symbols represented history at one time, but
    Confederate-Americans have not acted to protect the sanctity
    of their symbols from use and abuse by hate groups, thereby
    Southerners have forfeited their claim to these symbols."

    Southerners never willingly gave up their symbols 130 years ago and the same is true today. The abduction of our symbols by another group, does not constitute forfeiture, especially when there is no recourse for preventing their use by another group. Ironically, the same liberals who burn and abuse the U.S. flag and Confederate flags, are the same ones who work to overthrow the laws that are designed to protect those symbols from abuse. Even when the flag being abused is the U.S. flag, the courts have ruled that laws against such abuse are unconstitutional. If there is no recourse for protecting the U.S. flag from abuse by hate groups, how can any flag be protected? If the Nation of Islam marches with the black liberation flag, should we assume that this flag now represents the same racism and anti-Semitism espoused by this "hate group"?

    Argument #3

    Argument
    "Confederate symbols should not be honored because they
    are cruel reminders of the by-gone era of slavery and
    slave-trade."

    Slavery was a legal institution in this country for over 200 years. Africans were brought here by northern slave traders to be used in northern industry, long before the antebellum South or the
    Confederacy ever existed. The first American colony to legalize slavery was Massachusetts in 1641, only 17 years after the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. "The slave trade became very profitable to the shipping colonies and Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New Hampshire had many ships in the triangular trade," (72). "The moral argument against slavery arose early in the New England shipping colonies but it could not withstand the profits of the trade and
    soon died out." (73).

    Thomas Jefferson condemned the slave trade in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, but the New England slave traders lobbied to have the clause stricken. In a short eleven year period form 1755 to 1766, no fewer than 23,000 slaves landed in
    Massachusetts. By 1787, Rhode Island had taken first place in the slave trade to be unseated later by New York. Before long, millions of slaves would be brought to America by way of 'northern' slave ships. After all, there were no Southern slave ships involved in the triangular slave, it was simply too cruel.

    William P. Cheshire, the senior editorial columnist for the Arizona Republic recently noted, the New England Yankee who brought slaves to America, "were interested in getting money, not in helping
    their cargo make a fresh start in the New World." He adds that northern slave ownership "isn't widely known - American textbooks tend to be printed in Boston, not Atlanta - but early New Englanders not only sold blacks to Southern planters but also kept slaves for themselves as well as enslaving the local Indian population," (74).

    Slavery did not appear in the South until northern settlers began to migrate South, bringing with them their slaves. It was soon discovered that while slaves were not suited to the harsh climate and working conditions of the north, they were ideal sources of cheap labor for the newly flourishing economy of the agricultural South. Of the 9.5 million slaves brought to the Western Hemisphere from 1500 - 1870, less than 6% were brought to the United States. This means that our Hispanic, British and French neighbors to the south owned over 94% of the slaves brought to the New World. In the South, less than 7% of the total population ever owned a slave. In other words, over 93% of Southerners did not own any slaves, (75).

    Attempts to outlaw the slave trade in the north only increased the profits of smuggling. In 1858, only two years prior to the birth of the Confederacy, Stephen Douglas noted that over 15,000 slaves had been smuggled into New York alone, with over 85 vessels sailing from New York in 1859 to smuggle even more slaves. Perhaps it was their own guilt that drove the abolitionists of the day to point an accusing finger at the South, while closing their eyes to the slavery and the slave trade taking place in their own back yards.

    For more than 200 years, northern slave traders made enormous profits that furnished the capitol for future investments into mainstream industries. Who is more responsible for slavery in America, the Southern plantation owner who fed and clothed his slaves, or the New England "Yankee" slave trader who brought the slaves here in the first place?

    From 1641, when Massachusetts first legalized slavery, until 1865, when the Confederate struggle for independence ended, slavery was a legal institution in America that lasted over 224 years. The
    Confederate battle flag flew for 4 of those 224 years, but the U.S. flag and its colonial predecessors flew over legalized slavery for ALL of those 224 years. It was the U.S. flag that the slave first saw, and it was the U.S. flag that flew on the mast of New England slaves ships as they brought their human cargo to this country. It is clear, that those who attack the Confederate flag as a reminder of slavery are overlooking the most guilty and hateful of all reminders of American slavery, the U.S. flag.

    Argument #4

    Argument:
    Confederate symbols should not be tolerated because they
    represent a government that fought a war to keep blacks in
    bondage and to preserve the institution of slavery.

    This is one of the most commonly used arguments against Confederate symbolism and one of the easiest to prove false. Everyone knows that the South (and the North) had slavery until
    1865. The north had slavery at least until 1866, due to some holdouts like Union General Ulysses S. Grant who refused to give up his slaves until the passage of the 13th Amendment. General Robert E. Lee on the other hand, freed every slave that he had, prior to the War. General Lee sent money on a regular basis to Africa, to one of his freed slaves, even after the War, so he could educate his son, and start his business that he always dreamed of having. This was made possible due to Lee's generosity. That does not sound like racism to me.

    Prior to 1866, slavery was completely legal. The Supreme Court had ruled favorably on the legality and constitutionality of slavery. Presidents Buchanan and Lincoln both promised many times, that they would not interfere with the practice of slavery. New laws were recently put on the books protecting slave owners from loss of slave property due to theft or runaways. Add to that, the fact that the Confederate states constituted the fifth wealthiest region in the world. The slave owning
    states had all of these things and more. So why on earth would Southern states secede from the United States? Surely, no one believes that the South would have left the security of the Union and
    gone to fight a war for something they already had! Countries do not fight wars for the things they have, they fight wars to obtain the things they do not have.

    To emphasize how safe the institution of slavery was, let's look at what it would have taken to eliminate it. Since slavery was enshrined in the U.S. Constitution, it would require a constitutional amendment and that is very difficult to achieve. Two-thirds of the House and Senate must agree to the amendment and then three-fourths of all the states must vote to ratify the amendment before it can become part of the U.S. Constitution. This simply would never have happened as long as the Southern states stayed in the Union! That's right, with the South in the Union, the northern and Southern slave states would have voted down any attempt to amend the Constitution, thereby
    guaranteeing that the institution of slavery could continue almost indefinitely. So you see, it is quite easy to prove that the South did not secede and fight a war to maintain slavery, an institution they already possessed.

    What the South did not have was financial freedom. Southerners were slaves to the industrial demands of the north, just as blacks were slaves to the agricultural demands of the South. Growth potential was severely limited in the South, so long as the north continued to levy heavy tariffs on things that Southerners needed to purchase and heavy taxes on those things that Southerners produced. In the words of South Carolina senator John C. Calhoun in 1850, "The north has
    adopted a system of revenue and disbursements, in which an undue proportion of the burden of taxation has been imposed on the South, and an undue proportion of its proceeds appropriated to the north ...
    The South as the great exporting portion of the Union has, in reality, paid vastly more than her due proportion of the revenue,". Unfair taxation drove Americans to war with Britain in 1775 and against each other in 1861. History is quite clear on this point.

    Argument #5

    Argument:
    "Since Confederate symbols were erected and raised in
    defiance of court ordered integration during the 1950's and
    60', they should be removed."

    This argument goes hand-in-hand with those who try to portray the 1950's, especially in the South, as a decade of hate. This approach was popular with "civil rights" groups in Georgia as well as the liberal media. The Georgia state flag, for example, was changed in 1956. Those who want the flag changed today, claim that the current state flag was established as a slap in the face of court ordered integration, even though records indicate otherwise. Integration was ordered by the courts in 1952. If Georgia legislators were angry over integration, it would not have taken them four years to change the Georgia flag. If defiance had been the reason for the flag's change, it would have
    been changed the very same day as the court decision! After all, opposing integration in the 1950's was a popular position to hold, and it earned votes for politicians, both in the north and the South.

    The formula for providing quality education has always been an illusive one with many variables. In the 1950's, some of those variables discussed by the members of the state legislatures in the
    north and the South included teacher salaries, improved curriculum, funding for new schools and integration. Any state whose elected officials did not thoroughly debate how court ordered integration might effect quality education was done a serious disservice. Yes, debates over segregation and integration took place during the 1950's, but the timing of those debates was chosen by the civil rights movement and not by the defenders of segregation who would have
    preferred that the debates never occur at all. Had the courts ordered integration 50 years earlier or 50 years later, the 1950's would have still been a decade of heritage not hate.

    In the 1950's and especially the South, a nationwide preparation for the "Civil War Centennial" had begun. This event would include many states with activities spanning several years. The 1996
    Olympics in Atlanta paled in comparison to the celebration surrounding the historic centennial event. President Dwight D. Eisenhower issued a special proclamation calling on all state and federal employees to take part in the festivities. The Postal Service issued a special set of stamps to commemorate the event. Knowing that many visitors coming to the South would take guided tours,
    hundreds and thousands of historic markers were also placed throughout the 1950's in many states. The decade of the 1950's saw an enormous outpouring of Southern awareness that had its
    beginnings in the late 1930's with the incredible success of Margaret Mitchell's novel, "Gone With The Wind" and its subsequent movie premier in Atlanta. Hailed as an overwhelming success, this classic and moving story of the South's struggle for independence and then survival, continues to serve as an inspiration to millions of Americans today.

    Argument #6

    Argument:
    "Confederate flags are un-American and they do not
    represent all Americans."

    It is impossible to find a symbol of a flag that will represent everyone. The most accurate polls to date show that 87% of all Americans are not offended by Confederate symbolism. Many Americans feel that they are best represented by a Confederate flag. Actions that appease 13% of our population while disenfranchising 87% of our population, are not progressive or democratic. Nor are they very savvy from a political point of view. When You have a symbol that is as popular as the Confederate battle flag, the best solution is to simply leave it alone.

    Any person who claims that Confederate flags are un-American needs a remedial course in geography. "America" as we refer to it, consists of all 50 states, not just those that exist in the north. Southerners are Americans and their flags are American flags as well. A patriotic symbol is one that represents freedom and virtue to its owner, not necessarily to others who view the symbol. If the Confederate battle flag makes you feel patriotic and proud to be a Southerner, then it is
    just as patriotic to fly a Confederate flag at your home or place of business as it is to fly the flag of the United States.



    The Confederate flag represented a nation that once formed, wanted to be left alone in peace. Like the United States, it went to war to defend its homelands and beliefs. Contrary to popular belief, the Civil War was not fought to end the perpetuation of slavery. It was (for the North) to restore the Union and protect the ideals of freedom our forefathers vouchsafed to us.

    It was not until 1863 (when the Emancipation Proclamation went into effect) that the issue of slavery reached new heights of momentum. Even then did the majority of Union soldiers refuse to fight with or make the purpose of the war the free the blacks. A closer look at history also illustrates that the flag did not have a racist meaning at the time it was conceived. The book Black Confederate and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia by Erwin L. Jordan Jr., brings up the point that Tennessee authorized the enlistment of free blacks in 1861. These soldiers were paid the same as white soldiers, unlike their Yankee counterparts who were paid three dollars less. When the Confederate government called for the enlistment of 300,000 blacks in March 1865, the now freed men answered the call. (According to Soldiers Blue and Gray by James Robertson Jr.) The majority of Confederate soldiers were poor farmers without any slaves, so they were obviously fighting for something more. Besides, Northern businessmen of that era mistreated immigrant workers and child labor was also a common practice of the time. We cannot judge the 19th Century lifestyle with 20th Century values, and this must be taken into consideration.

    Another interesting historical point is that the Confederate flag most people picture was never officially adopted by the Confederate government. Over the nation’s four year history, there were three national flags, as well as the flag which has gained such notoriety. This flag was a battle flag that soldiers in the field used to recognize and follow during the chaos of a battle. Through the smoke from gunfire, the flags would stand out as a rallying point.

    As for hate groups, they have desecrated the image of the Confederate flag in the same way they have desecrated the human race. Yes, there are people who misuse the flag, but the overall meaning of the flag as a heroic symbol cannot be forgotten because some people use it with ill intent. Hate groups also fly the American flag, quote Biblical passages, and burn crosses to promote their ideas. Should the Bible, American flag, and Crucifix be eradicated because of the fact that hate groups misuse them?

    Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate hero and the first Grand Wizard of the KKK renounced the Klan when it began to commit hate crimes, and called for the Klan's abolishment stating, "We are born on the same soil, breathe the same air, live on the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters?" and calling for the Klan’s abolishment.

    Some also feel John Brown was hanged because he "simply was against slavery and took over a federal arsenal." The reason Brown stopped after taking over the Harper’s Ferry arsenal is because the military captured him. Brown’s intent was to arm the slaves and abolitionists to initiate a great rebellion.

    As for the accusation of Robert E. Lee being a traitor, he was very loyal to his family and his home. People today rarely show the passion Lee and the other Confederate and Union soldiers had for their beliefs. These men were the epitome of a day when honor and courage prevailed over underhandedness and apathy. This was a far simpler and a nobler day.


    I am the Confederate Flag of America.
    I was born in 1861. I represented many Americans of which were many colors, contrary to modern day beliefs. I am hated by people who don’t know me or what I stood for. I was not designed as a hate object, though many people look at me this way today. I was not born to represent white sheets and shaved heads.
    I was designed to support state rights and soldiers who wore gray. So don’t hate me because of what certain groups have used me for. Just remember at some point in time I represented each and every one of you, because I was an American symbol, and represented you, no matter what race you are.
    I am the Confederate Flag of America.

  9. #78
    I love you guys! ::sniffle::

    I am usually the lone voice trying to correct decades of misinformation & ignorance.
    Never argue with an idiot. First they drag you down to their level then they beat you with experience!

  10. #79
    Those that hate the Confederate flag are the real haters. Carpetbaggers.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  11. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
    Racist flag?? You are showing your ignorance iceman. The flag of the Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

    If you want to argue the point please dont waste my time if all you bring to the table is the FUD put out by the MN public education system. My wife is from MN & I know 1st hand how pathetic it is.

    Pssst... If the South did win this would be a better country today!
    We are getting off topic here.
    But, let me help you.


    The Confederate flag has gone through a number of face lifts since its origin. During the course of the Civil War, this flag represented Southern rebellion and defiance to the United States Constitution. According to the anti-defamation league, although some Southerners see the flag simply as a symbol of Southern pride, it is often used by racists to represent white domination of blacks and Jews. The flag remains a subject of controversy because some Southern states still fly the flag from public buildings or incorporate it into their state flag’s design. Racists also use the flag as an alternative to the American flag, which they consider to be an emblem of what they describe as the Jewish-controlled government.

    The Confederate Flag: Symbol of Culture or Racism The Professor

    I was not educated within bounds of the state of Minnesota. I was skooled at the University of California, and New York University. I got me one of dem liberal edumadcations.

    Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid.”-John Wayne

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