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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    +1 - Anne SHOULD know that it's not about Religion, but a relationship with God.. Religion is man's way to try to aid in that relationship, and people tend to get in the way with their agenda's and their own beliefs.
    I would NOT say that I am anti-religion, but I am Anti-MOST Religions. I do not have an issue with most of Anne's points and I believe, IF I remember right that she was Catholic, which explains a lot of her statement.
    IF it had not been for Christianity, Women would not have nearly as equal a standing as they do.

    The next statement will not be popular with some..
    I am also NOT Anti-Gay any more than I am Anti-Promiscuity, Anti-Lying, or any other Anti-any other "sin", which we are all guilty of.. Most Christians hold the Gay Lifestyle to a Higher level awful, but it is a sin like any other.. IF you want to be gay, go have at it.. What you do in your house with another consenting adult(s), go for it.. Just don't ask me (or demand) that I say it's right, Just as I don't ask you, (or demand) that you say Christianity is the only true religion, although I believe it is.

    To some extent is sounds like Anne is on the right track to stop following MEN and Follow Jesus instead. She needs to pull out her Bible and decide for herself what Jesus would have her do... She (Nor anyone else) will not be able to use the excuse, "well I was following So and So's teaching".. We will all be judged on our own
    Maybe Anne was visiting the XXXXXXwebsite, and saw all the XXXXXXXXXX people, who were xxxxxxxxx, and xxxxxxxx, to each other, and especially anyone who got in there way, or disagreed with them.
    It could be Anne heard about the XXXXXXXX religion, and their practices and just said to hell with it.
    Maybe Anne had a terrible experience with XXXXXXX in her childhood, and just said to hell with it.
    What Anne said makes perfect sense to me.
    Maybe Anne prefers men over a XXXXXXXX figure.

    Hoot, how come you are not at the XXXXXXXX website with the XXXXXXXX people?

    From recent text, you are clearly not one of them.

    I am on ______________ for _________ the_______so that will explain the XXXXXX.
    I guess I have ___________the ____________________ here.


    Regarding your comment about XXXXXXXX being the only true XXXXXXX. I disagree. So will millions of others. Personally, I think all XXXXXXXXXX are XXXXXXXXXX.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    +1 - Anne SHOULD know that it's not about Religion, but a relationship with God.. Religion is man's way to try to aid in that relationship, and people tend to get in the way with their agenda's and their own beliefs.
    I would NOT say that I am anti-religion, but I am Anti-MOST Religions for the reasons stated above. I do not have an issue with most of Anne's points and I believe, IF I remember right that she was Catholic, which explains a lot of her statements.
    IF it had not been for Christianity, Women would not have nearly as equal a standing as they do. In Jesus's time, Women were considered little more than property and by Jesus's example he held women in high regard and encouraged them to sit at his feet and learn just like the men..

    The next statement will not be popular with some..
    I am also NOT Anti-Gay any more than I am Anti-Promiscuity, Anti-Lying, or any other Anti-any other "sin", which we are all guilty of.. Most Christians hold the Gay Lifestyle to a Higher level of awful, but it is a sin like any other.. IF you want to be gay, go have at it.. What you do in your house with another consenting adult(s), go for it.. Just don't ask me (or demand) that I say it's right, Just as I don't ask you, (or demand) that you say Christianity is the only true religion, although I believe it is.

    To some extent is sounds like Anne is on the right track to stop following MEN and Follow Jesus instead. She needs to pull out her Bible and decide for herself what Jesus would have her do...
    She (Nor anyone else) will not be able to use the excuse, "well I was following So and So's teaching" on judgment day..
    We will all be judged on our own for our actions/thoughts..
    Thank God that I have an advocate that has already paid the price for my MANY wrongs!!!
    I am just a sinner (like everyone else) saved by grace, trying to allow myself to get a little better each day.. I still have a long way to go!!!
    GREAT post Hoot..
    Thumbs up!

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    Maybe Anne was visiting the XXXXXXwebsite, and saw all the XXXXXXXXXX people, who were xxxxxxxxx, and xxxxxxxx, to each other, and especially anyone who got in there way, or disagreed with them.
    It could be Anne heard about the XXXXXXXX religion, and their practices and just said to hell with it.
    Maybe Anne had a terrible experience with XXXXXXX in her childhood, and just said to hell with it.
    What Anne said makes perfect sense to me.
    Maybe Anne prefers men over a XXXXXXXX figure.

    Hoot, how come you are not at the XXXXXXXX website with the XXXXXXXX people?

    From recent text, you are clearly not one of them.

    I am on ______________ for _________ the_______so that will explain the XXXXXX.
    I guess I have ___________the ____________________ here.


    Regarding your comment about XXXXXXXX being the only true XXXXXXX. I disagree. So will millions of others. Personally, I think all XXXXXXXXXX are XXXXXXXXXX.
    What's up my friend??

    I guess I could fill in all the XXXXX's with quite a few things and come up with multiple meanings.

    I provided MY response, and MY view on the subject.. I support the right for you or anyone else to do the same.. I left Plenty of room in my statements for you, or anyone else, to disagree... And I see that you have..
    Welcome to free speech..

    I think I've been more than gracious (respectful) in most of my responses to you and others, while still preserving my right to express my opinion... I'm not sure what else you would want from me on a forum...

    My opinion carries just as much weight as everyone elses.. To be considered or ignored (or occasionally chastised) depending on the reader...

    As to your question:
    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    Hoot, how come you are not at the XXXXXXXX website with the XXXXXXXX people?
    I thought I made it clear that I do NOT like most Religious people (I presume this was the meaning of your XXXXX's).
    All most of them want to do is Argue and are NOT interested in meaningful dialog.. At least occasionally here, there are glimmers of genuineness and open dialog.. I thought WE had a couple of those, but alas, I may have been mistaken..

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    What's up my friend??

    I guess I could fill in all the XXXXX's with quite a few things and come up with multiple meanings.

    I provided MY response, and MY view on the subject.. I support the right for you or anyone else to do the same.. I left Plenty of room in my statements for you, or anyone else, to disagree... And I see that you have..
    Welcome to free speech..

    I think I've been more than gracious (respectful) in most of my responses to you and others, while still preserving my right to express my opinion... I'm not sure what else you would want from me on a forum...

    My opinion carries just as much weight as everyone elses.. To be considered or ignored (or occasionally chastised) depending on the reader...

    As to your question:

    I thought I made it clear that I do NOT like most Religious people (I presume this was the meaning of your XXXXX's).
    All most of them want to do is Argue and are NOT interested in meaningful dialog.. At least occasionally here, there are glimmers of genuineness and open dialog.. I thought WE had a couple of those, but alas, I may have been mistaken..
    Hoot, nothing wrong with your postings. You are ok.

  6. The Bible was written by men, and it was various men's interpretations of life and morality. Keep that in mind when you claim to be anti-religious yet spiritually sound. I've found that most churches will claim to be against organized religion yet will exhibit the exact same characteristics of a major organized religion.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    What's the matter Anne, your christian themed books ain't selling?

    Andy
    Great point. I have read 6 or 7 of her books. The Mummy (Ramses the Damned), and Interview with the Vampire are 2 of the best books I've ever read. Her recent efforts were HORRIBLE. I don't know if this is the reason. I'll take her at her word. But i sure fits...
    "I got you in a Stranglehold, baby. And then I crushed your face" -Ted Nugent

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    The Bible was written by men, and it was various men's interpretations of life and morality. Keep that in mind when you claim to be anti-religious yet spiritually sound. I've found that most churches will claim to be against organized religion yet will exhibit the exact same characteristics of a major organized religion.
    Thanx Midnight for pointing out the strength and weakness of Christianity.. (Sorry this is so long, but Midnight brought up such an important point!!!)
    Yes the Bible was written BY men, but inspired by God.. No other book has been written with so many chapters (66 chapters) by so many authors (40 authors) across so many years (1500 years) yet the whole book tells one story. With Hundreds and hundreds of specific prophesies foretold and came to pass with amazing accuracy..

    But now to the main point.. "claim to be anti-religious yet spiritually sound"

    This statement brings in the reason why Christianity is NOT just another religion, just like all the others..
    I believe I am "spiritually sound", but I have nothing to do with that.. Whether I'm religious, Anti-religious, Mother Theresa, or just a Jack-Ass, as a Christian the "soundness" has nothing to do with Me or What I've done.. ANYTHING that I have tried to do well and for the GOOD, It is ALL like filthy rags to God.. The "soundness" of my (and our) Spiritual position has EVERYTHING to do with what GOD has done.. HE has reached over a gulf that no man can ever cross and made a way to bring about a relationship between faulty people and a perfect God and Creator...

    We are like slaves, with a terrible master,then we are offered freedom from our circumstances, that cost us nothing but our self pride, but cost God a Great price! Because he "purchased" us and brought us from a place of filth and selfishness and brought us into His own house and then treats us just like we were one of his own children and loves us and cares for us as if we had never lived our prior horrible existence.. That IS our "Spiritual Soundness"..

    IF NOT Christianity, what are your choices??

    1) Every other religion.. Every other religion in one way or another depends on you somehow "earning" your way to God..
    IF you do SOMETHING enough,
    and/or IF you are SINCERE enough,
    and/or IF you are ENLIGHTENED enough,
    and/or, and/or, and/or... So you have to be smart enough, dedicated enough, SOMETHING enough, to EARN your way to God..
    The issue with this is that there is a great gulf between ALL of us.. A gulf that we could never cross. A gulf that is caused by our own selfishness and pride. A gulf that ONLY GOD could reach across and LOVE us right where we are (In that Slavery position talked about above), but also LOVE US too much to leave us there.
    The Downside to this choice is a type of slavery.. It's the Carrot on a stick problem. You never seem to be quite enough, you have never done quite enough, and face it.. most of us are too damn lazy to really make the standard, even if there was a chance to make this work..

    2) Nothing / Evolution / Cosmic Accident - You're Born, You live, You die.. That's it.. There is no real meaning to you or your life.. Whatever impacts you have on others will quickly fade away as they to move on to their meaningless destiny..
    The Downside to this is there is no meaning.. You might as well go rob a few banks and cheat as many people as you can, so you can have the greatest experience of self indulgence you can have, because in the end that's all there is.. IF the people you cheated and killed so you could have a great ride in life, it won't really matter anyway, because there fate is just like yours.. They just didn't wind up with as good of an experience as you did.. But it doesn't matter.. You're dead, and that's it..

    So there you have it.. Midnight made the point.. "Spiritual soundness", that's what it's all about..

    We are all going to be jack-asses to some degree.. Our selfishness will always outweigh all the good that we do..
    Churches are going to remain full of religious, self-righteous, hypocrites, because there are people there.. But it's the best we got.. Faulty people trying to grasp the great LOVE of God that would be willing to let His own son, step down from Deity, to become part of His own creation, and to die a horrible death so that the Great price could be paid to build a bridge across a gulf that could not be built any other way.
    In the process, God knows what it's like to really be human.. To Love, and to anguish, to laugh and to cry. To celebrate life and love and understand what it is to be cheated, betrayed and have those you love die and be taken away from you... What compassion God can now have for us, as the great creator of all things has stepped down into his creation and experienced what it's like to be one of us..

    You don't have to be Einstein or Mother Theresa to make the goal line.. The simplest of minds can easily understand and make the decision to be free and the greater the mind, the harder it is because of self pride to make it to the goal.. Only God could set up a system that those who have every excuse for not making it (simple minds) can make it in and those that have NO excuse (Great thinkers) are the ones that stumble the most.. Ahhhh God is a Great God and Loves us SO much!!!

    Ephesians 2:1-9 Verse 9 is What indicates that our Spiritual Soundness does not depend on What we have earned, but what was offered and accepted by us..

    Thanx Midnight!!

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  9. #18
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    Hoot,

    Respectfully I see some huge inconsistencies in your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    IF NOT Christianity, what are your choices??

    1) Every other religion.. Every other religion in one way or another depends on you somehow "earning" your way to God..
    In the New Testament, Jesus demands, demands, demands, several things. If you do not fulfill these demands, regardless of the life you lead, you are damned to hell, or in some interpretations, eternal separation from God. There are 8 clear, concise, non-ambiguous demands:

    Luke Ch10: Jesus says (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, love God and love your neighbor." (If you do not believe in God, you are damned to hell. It would be so simple for God to reveal himself and then let one could not disbelieve in him.)
    Luke Ch18: Jesus says (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, keep the 10 commandments and sell everything you have and follow me."
    Luke Ch14: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must hate your family and your own life and give up (sell) everything you have to be my disciple."
    John Ch6: (paraphrased) "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will go to hell."
    Mathew Ch18: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, change and become like a child."
    John Ch3: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must be born again (of the spirit)."
    Mathew Ch5: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees."
    John Ch3: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must believe that I am the son of God."

    This is what struck me when I read the Bible for the first time (I was an adult). I realized that I did not know a single Christian that simply obeyed the words of Jesus Christ. I still do not. In fact, if somebody sold everything they had to follow Christ and preach his word; many Christians would think he lost his mind.

    2) Nothing / Evolution / Cosmic Accident - You're Born, You live, You die.. That's it.. There is no real meaning to you or your life.. Whatever impacts you have on others will quickly fade away as they to move on to their meaningless destiny..

    The Downside to this is there is no meaning.. You might as well go rob a few banks and cheat as many people as you can, so you can have the greatest experience of self indulgence you can have, because in the end that's all there is..!
    After Christians, nonbelievers are the second most popular group in the US (Google it). CLEARLY their morality is not based on their belief in the origins of life. Clearly Christian morality is also not based on the Bible. The Bible is clear and absolutely unambiguous that Christians must kill homosexuals, adulterers, anyone who is an unbeliever, children who do not obey their parents, everyone who works on the Sabbath, anyone who uses God's name in vein. Slavery is fully endorsed in the Bible. God says slaves are your property and can be willed to your children. If you beat and kill a slave, you are to be punished, but if you just injure your slave, you are not subject to any punishment. According to the perfect word of the Bible, women are not allowed to speak in church, period. The Bible says that if you fight and defeat an enemy, you are then to kill all the men, non-virgin women, and male children. But you can keep the virgins for yourself.

    Clearly neither Christians nor non-believers get their morality from the Bible. Morality is born by the requirements of living in a society. It is innate in our nature.

    Some would argue that the coming of Christ removed the responsibility to follow God's laws from the Old Testament. But Jesus said "...till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." If you argue that Christ fulfills the law, and that you have no responsibility to the old law, then how can you then ignore the demands of Christ in the "new law".

    BTW, I have great respect for people who follow the Golden rule. I love many Christian people, especially those who express our current interpretation of the love of Christ. I accepted Christ into my heart years ago, but do not currently believe the Bible. To say that if someone is a non-believer their life is meaningless and that they might as well kill, rape, and steal, is really silly and shows a lack of understanding about simple reality. I could say the same about Christians. Since all you need to do to go to heaven and have your sins forgiven is to believe in Christ and ask forgivemeness, you might as well do the same until the day you die. That is equally as silly and shallow minded. You don't need to be Einstein or Mother Theresa to realize that.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Islander View Post
    I have great respect for people who follow the Golden rule.
    As do I. Not hard to understand and doesn't require alot of planning and forethought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Islander View Post
    ...understanding about simple reality.
    Reality. What a concept. So many people and institutions have capitalized on and taken advantage of reality distortion it is just freaking unbelieveable.

    But then again, depending on the what rule(s) you are playing by....

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Islander View Post
    Hoot,

    Respectfully I see some huge inconsistencies in your arguments.

    In the New Testament, Jesus demands, demands, demands, several things. If you do not fulfill these demands, regardless of the life you lead, you are damned to hell, or in some interpretations, eternal separation from God. There are 8 clear, concise, non-ambiguous demands:

    Luke Ch10: Jesus says (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, love God and love your neighbor." (If you do not believe in God, you are damned to hell. It would be so simple for God to reveal himself and then let one could not disbelieve in him.)
    Luke Ch18: Jesus says (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, keep the 10 commandments and sell everything you have and follow me."
    Luke Ch14: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must hate your family and your own life and give up (sell) everything you have to be my disciple."
    John Ch6: (paraphrased) "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will go to hell."
    Mathew Ch18: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, change and become like a child."
    John Ch3: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must be born again (of the spirit)."
    Mathew Ch5: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees."
    John Ch3: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, you must believe that I am the son of God."

    This is what struck me when I read the Bible for the first time (I was an adult). I realized that I did not know a single Christian that simply obeyed the words of Jesus Christ. I still do not. In fact, if somebody sold everything they had to follow Christ and preach his word; many Christians would think he lost his mind.
    Islander..
    Thank you for spending such an amount of time with your response.. There is WAY too much here to respond to in a thread..

    I will say this.. There are still two covenants with God, but each person is either under either the OLD or the NEW, but not both..

    Remember when Jesus was speaking he was speaking to everyone under the 1st covenant, as the 2nd covenant did not come into being until Jesus's death..
    Basically IF you have not accepted Jesus as your savior, meaning you have accepted His gift of being covered under His payment for your sins, then you are under the 1st covenant.
    IF you have accepted Jesus as Lord of your life, allowing His payment for your sins to be covered, then you are under the "new" or 2nd covenant.
    Does this mean that the 10 commandments no longer apply to you, essentially YES.. Does this mean you have an absolute license to do whatever you want, No.. Because you have been purchased, your life is no longer truly yours, but belongs to the Lord. Does this mean you will not Sin any longer?? Of course not, you are still a human being and will sin everyday until you die; However, IF you truly understand the price that was paid for you, then everyday you should be striving to so your gratitude for the great love God has shown you in YOUR life.. Paul wrote about this...
    ALSO Jesus gave us TWO new commandments to follow as believers in place of the 10..
    Mark 12:28-31 - Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]There is no commandment greater than these.
    IF you really think about Living by Just these two commandments, it will encompass all of the original 10, but instead of them being Thou shalts, and thou Shalt Nots, the come from a response of the HEART, of LOVE.. When you move it from a rule (Which actually attracts you to do it, just ask any two year old!) to a response of the heart for what God has done for you, the desire for Sin is diminished and your focus is on the relationship with Him and HIS righteousness, instead of the list of rules which leads to pride and Self -Righteousness.

    To take just ONE of your examples below and explain it:
    Mathew Ch5: (paraphrased) "To inherit eternal life, your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees."
    Is this statement True, and does it apply to me as a believer, Absolutely!!!; However you need to understand it in Context.. The Pharisees lived (or were supposed to) a very "godly life".. That was their job!!! But how did they achieve their righteousness?? Through their own efforts every day... Did they fail, Absolutely!! So even with all their time to fully devote themselves (which we do not) they fell short of the Glory of God..
    Now if your saved, where does your righteousness come from?? Not by ANY efforts on your part, but by the finished work of Jesus Christ.. So a saved persons righteousness does indeed surpass the Pharisees, because it does NOT depend on the saved person's actions but it depends on God and His perfect work!!!

    If you are truly interested in learning more about this concept and understanding your position under either the old or New covenant I will recommend a book to you.. I will warn you, it is a POORLY written book (writing style) but has excellent concepts and explanations.. It may help you to better answer
    The Naked Gospel

    I do NOT know where you get the notion that Christians are to kill others, etc.. There is much of that type of thing in the OLD testament, but of course there were NO Christians in the old testament as Christ had not yet come to Earth. IT would also be a direct contradiction to Mark 12:28-31 listed above.. Sound more like the Koran to me..

    I will also say that there are MANY MANY people in America that say they are Christians simply because they were born in America, or because their Mom & Dad said they were, or they went to church when they were kids, etc. etc.. None of these things make you a Christian and I've known lots of people that say they were Christians, but when I asked them what that meant, they had little to know idea what or why about Christianity. SO, If you are considering what "Christians" base of morality is, and you are comparing it to the anyone and everyone who says they are a Christian, then I would think your data would be fatally flawed. Even for many true believers, they do SO little study and know so little about their faith that there twice a year appearance at church on Christmas and Easter has done little more than entertained them and has not had any impact on their moral compass..

    So, go Back and re-read your post, and think a little about what you wrote in terms of Old Covenant (Condemnation) and the New Covenant (Grace).. Think about who was being spoken to, and what was the message.. The message may have been yet to come because Jesus had not died yet..

    I would be interested in understanding your statement "I accepted Christ into my heart years ago, but do not currently believe the Bible". You would know NOTHING about Christ without the Bible.

    So does this mean that You accepted Christ, but did not really understand what you were accepting, but others were doing it, so you did too?

    You accepted Christ and what the Bible said about Him and what he did for you, but don't believe the rest of the bible?

    You believe parts of the Bible, but not all of it?

    Or ???

    I'm sorry you lost your belief in the Bible, but it may be that as described above you just didn't understand the context that each area was written under, and therefore it brought you to conclusions that were in error...

    Anyway, thanx for your great response, and think about getting the book, but because it is poorly written it is a little hard to get though unless you are interested in the message that is TRYING to be conveyed.

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

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