Living Under Surveillance

[toreskha]

Give some examples of thier mistakes and falsehoods, if you would, Toreskha.

I haven't seen it in a while, but off the top of my head...

1. They said that the aircraft engine parts found in the wreckage of the Pentagon actually goes to a missile. Of course, it doesn't...it goes to a Boeing 757, as evidenced by the very pictures used in the movie. The rotor thing found was a *piece* of an engine. Obviously, most of the rest of the parts were smashed into bits or destroyed in the intense fire.
   
2. They said that there were very few airplane parts scattered around after the Pentagon attack, and most of them were either small bits outside the building, or a few strategically placed pieces inside. In fact, there were airplane parts scattered everywhere. The same is true at the WTC - airplane pieces, everywhere.
   
3. The streetlights outside the Pentagon were supposedly pushed in the wrong direction for the path of flight. Actually, the way that the lights were deformed is consistent with the way they are designed, as they're breakaway lights meant to give way in traffic accidents.
   
4. There was supposedly no evidence that anything had hit the side of the Pentagon, except for a relatively small hole. This is based on a lack of understanding of basic engineering. The Pentagon is built to withstand significant battle damage - the plane more or less went right through the building, mostly through weak points such as windows, but basically wherever it could find a spot. Hit a really thick wall with little holes in it in a car made mostly of aluminum and filled with jet fuel at 500 MPH and see what happens. The car will basically disintegrate, but the wall will still be there, at least for a while as the fire burns.
   
5. They said that there were some sort of "hijacking drills" going on on 9/11. There weren't.
   
6. The bin Ladens being flown out of the country was supposed to be incredibly suspicious when "all flights were grounded". In fact, all flights were not grounded - government and some private aircraft were still fine. The evacuation of bin Laden's law-abiding family has been widely acknowledged and is part of the public record.
   
7. The fact that cell phones worked at altitude was supposed to be odd. It's not. The dynamics of radio transmissions are highly complex and can sometimes be difficult to predict, but most phones will get a good signal in aircraft at relatively low altitudes. Also, signals travel better as the air gets thinner, and higher terrain can also assist somewhat. It's not like they were flying over Florida the entire time.

Additionally, there's this Karl Schwarz character they use as a source. He claims to be the CEO of a bunch of different companies building crazy exotic technologies, but there is no evidence that any of it exists, and he's more likely just a crazy loon.

I don't even remember if they had the WTC demolition theory or not, but that has been repeatedly debunked - there were no so-called "flashes", no "bangs" that would be consistent with such an event, no equipment was found that would point to such a setup, no credible witnesses have come forth saying they helped in what would be a truly mammoth undertaking (wiring up two giant towers for controlled demolition is a long, involved process) and no one ever saw anyone placing the explosives.

While I tend to be generally skeptical, buying any of these theories seems to involve a suspension of disbelief beyond what I'm capable of achieving without getting the nagging feeling that I'm buying into an awfully incredible set of circumstances.

Any such scheme would, btw, involve silencing a large number of low-level employees (this is generally impossible), covering up evidence that would be very difficult to conceal, taking a huge risk in general and also employing cover-up methods of questionable effectiveness. Just imagine what it would take to set something up like this if you were going to do it - it boggles the mind, and would more than likely result in getting caught. Our government does not have alien-level organizational/coordinational/technological abilities.

[Cooter]

First I would like to state that Alex Jones was only involved in the making of Loose Change the Final Cut, and not the 1st or 2nd editions. And some of their theories have changed and evolved throughout all of the editions.
There are a couple things that I disagree with on Loose Change, as well. But I don't like to get my facts from just one source. I've watched several documentaries on 9/11, and developed my own conclusion.
Remember the important thing is they wanted to disprove the official explaination. The citizens have no obligation to explain what did go on, that is what the 9/11 commission was for, and thier story doesn't fit.

A Boeing 757 has two engines 9' in diameter and 12' long. The piece that was found was 3' in diameter. Several people, educated in aviation mechanics, have stated that there is no way that piece came from a 757.
Also, 757's weigh about 12 tons. There deffinetly wasn't enough debris there to account for that amount of plane. 12 ton commercial jets don't just 'vaporize.' Metal twists and bends, stuff gets thrown around, but we are not dealing with even close to the amount of energy to 'vaporize' anything here.
I'm sure you're familiar with the famous twisted chunk of fusulage on the lawn everyone has seen, right? I can't help to think, why was that the only similar object around, and why is it so perfectly placed on the front lawn?
Even the most skeptic person has to admit, there are a few things fishy about the whole thing. The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

I know it is not beyond people's comprehension to at least consider that their trusty government had something to do with this. Think about what the government has gained from 9/11. Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. It's called Problem-Reaction-Solution. This is certainly not the first time a government has used these false flag tactics against it's own people.
The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

[HK4U]

First I would like to state that Alex Jones was only involved in the making of Loose Change the Final Cut, and not the 1st or 2nd editions. And some of their theories have changed and evolved throughout all of the editions.
There are a couple things that I disagree with on Loose Change, as well. But I don't like to get my facts from just one source. I've watched several documentaries on 9/11, and developed my own conclusion.
Remember the important thing is they wanted to disprove the official explaination. The citizens have no obligation to explain what did go on, that is what the 9/11 commission was for, and thier story doesn't fit.

A Boeing 757 has two engines 9' in diameter and 12' long. The piece that was found was 3' in diameter. Several people, educated in aviation mechanics, have stated that there is no way that piece came from a 757.
Also, 757's weigh about 12 tons. There deffinetly wasn't enough debris there to account for that amount of plane. 12 ton commercial jets don't just 'vaporize.' Metal twists and bends, stuff gets thrown around, but we are not dealing with even close to the amount of energy to 'vaporize' anything here.
I'm sure you're familiar with the famous twisted chunk of fusulage on the lawn everyone has seen, right? I can't help to think, why was that the only similar object around, and why is it so perfectly placed on the front lawn?
Even the most skeptic person has to admit, there are a few things fishy about the whole thing. The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

I know it is not beyond people's comprehension to at least consider that their trusty government had something to do with this. Think about what the government has gained from 9/11. Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. It's called Problem-Reaction-Solution. This is certainly not the first time a government has used these false flag tactics against it's own people.
The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

Cooter said:

know it is not beyond people's comprehension to at least consider that their trusty government had something to do with this. Think about what the government has gained from 9/11. Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. It's called Problem-Reaction-Solution. This is certainly not the first time a government has used these false flag tactics against it's own people.
The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

Well we all know that our government would not lie to us nor ever has.

[Scarecrow]

Cooter said:

know it is not beyond people's comprehension to at least consider that their trusty government had something to do with this. Think about what the government has gained from 9/11. Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. It's called Problem-Reaction-Solution. This is certainly not the first time a government has used these false flag tactics against it's own people.
The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

Well we all know that our government would not lie to us nor ever has.

that's right. they are always honest and outstanding people. honest in their dealings with the public before election. honest when they are elected. never have any secret meetings dealing with information that is too secret for the people to even know about. I for one feel "safe" with these honest leaders with our interests and well being at the top of their list.

if that's not sarcasm.. I don't know what is.

[toreskha]

A Boeing 757 has two engines 9' in diameter and 12' long. The piece that was found was 3' in diameter. Several people, educated in aviation mechanics, have stated that there is no way that piece came from a 757.

And, there's other people, educated in aviation mechanics who said it did come from a 757. As engines of all types have many moving parts, I don't find it unreasonable that what was found could have been a smaller piece of the engine.

Also, 757's weigh about 12 tons. There deffinetly wasn't enough debris there to account for that amount of plane. 12 ton commercial jets don't just 'vaporize.' Metal twists and bends, stuff gets thrown around, but we are not dealing with even close to the amount of energy to 'vaporize' anything here.

I don't have a degree in thermodynamics, but I know that it doesn't take an inconceivably hot fire to burn aluminum, and that type of heat is a real possibility when you're dealing with hundreds of gallons of jet fuel and a variety of fast-burning fuel such as plastics and other assorted metals. This is pretty thin aluminum and it's all hitting what is essentially a massive above-ground bunker (the Pentagon), which itself is full of holes. Combine all that with 500 MPH of energy applied to the aircraft, and you'll really be lucky to have anything left over afterwards except very tiny pieces.

Maybe the government could do a test...take an old 757, have it take off robotically, get it going fast, then smash it into a replica of one wall of the Pentagon. Here's a test involving an F-4 Phantom hitting a weaker wall, and it doesn't even have fuel on board...the plane is not as big, but the same principle applies. The whole thing just disappears into the wall, immediately disintegrated by the force. Notice that there are no large identifiable engine parts flying out. It's just tiny pieces of metal. The wingtips escape because they keep going. That's what happens when thin, hollow metal cans hit large, solid structures head-on at very high speeds.

Note that this was not a typical airplane crash that we are used to seeing. Generally planes crash at takeoff or landing - they're not really going that fast, and the pilot typically is able to crash in a somewhat controlled manner, with much of the force being directed along the sides of the plane. Fuel might be scattered for miles. Even a high-altitude crash usually involves the aircraft breaking up before it actually hits the ground, and the pieces fall in a somewhat chaotic manner. This was a head-on, full-speed collision with a non-moving object. The engines were torn to unidentifiable pieces, most of the body of the plane was turned to dust and confetti, and all of the people, their belongings, and any plastic was burned instantly, if it wasn't pulverized to dust and then burnt. What would you expect to find afterwards? There's not much that would realistically survive that. If there were charred landing gear and parts to both engines, it would in fact look suspicious.

I'm sure you're familiar with the famous twisted chunk of fusulage on the lawn everyone has seen, right? I can't help to think, why was that the only similar object around, and why is it so perfectly placed on the front lawn?

I'm familiar with that, and with the "why so perfect" argument. So, there was one piece that happened to break off without too much damage - and where else would it end up? It had to land somewhere. If it had landed anywhere, it would have looked perfectly placed, because it one of the only large pieces.

Even the most skeptic person has to admit, there are a few things fishy about the whole thing. The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

I've looked into it quite a bit from different angles, and so far as I can see, everything seems perfectly consistent with what I would expect to find in a real-life incident of this sort.

I know it is not beyond people's comprehension to at least consider that their trusty government had something to do with this. Think about what the government has gained from 9/11. Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. It's called Problem-Reaction-Solution. This is certainly not the first time a government has used these false flag tactics against it's own people.
The evidence is overwhelming, do more research and you will see.

Certainly they seized and have exploited the opportunity delivered to them, but it is beyond the ability of humans - however visionary - to have planned such a scheme out so as to work with that level of unpredictable variables, barring either alien technology or mind control.

It's my opinion that people saw a lot of things on 9/11 that they weren't used to seeing anywhere besides movies, and have a hard time believing that there isn't some higher level who is somehow "in control" of the whole thing - even if that someone is a malevolent force - rather than accepting the idea that some things are simply out of human control altogether. It's a way of giving some sort of order to the events that happen in life. If the entities assigned the role of "controller" don't seem to actively participate, then the believers simply engage in a form of suspension of disbelief, and decide that anything that happens is simply a part of The Great Plan or Conspiracy or whatever...thus, nothing can ever happen that is inconsistent with the Conspiracy, because it constantly changes to meet whatever conditions are present. So, the CFR knows everything, and if something bad happens anyway, then they let it happen, or caused it for a particular reason...etc.

IMO, the official version is pretty much what happened, save some details that were probably edited out. The government was caught flat-footed, although it was an obvious vulnerability and they should have seen it coming. They also should have listened to the FBI JTTF, but they didn't. From there on, 9/11 (just like Katrina) was used for a couple of overpriced wars and some other nonsense stuff that doesn't do anything to stop terrorists, but does bring pork projects to various states without calling them pork projects. And the saga continues...