61 reasons GITMO needs to stay open!
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Thread: 61 reasons GITMO needs to stay open!

  1. #1
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    61 reasons GITMO needs to stay open!

    Pentagon: 61 ex-Guantanamo inmates return to terrorism

    Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:32pm EST


    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon said on Tuesday that 61 former detainees from its military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, appear to have returned to terrorism since their release from custody.

    Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said 18 former detainees are confirmed as "returning to the fight" and 43 are suspected of having done in a report issued late in December by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

    Morrell declined to provide details such as the identity of the former detainees, why and where they were released or what actions they have taken since leaving U.S. custody.

    "This is acts of terrorism. It could be Iraq, Afghanistan, it could be acts of terrorism around the world," he told reporters.

    Morrell said the latest figures, current through December 24, showed an 11 percent recidivism rate, up from 7 percent in a March 2008 report that counted 37 former detainees as suspected or confirmed active militants.

    Rights advocates said the lack of details should call the Pentagon's assertions into question.

    "Until enough information is provided to allow the press and the public to verify these claims, they need to be viewed with a healthy degree of skepticism," said Jennifer Daskal, a Washington-based lawyer for Human Rights Watch.

    Rights advocates contend that many Guantanamo detainees have never taken up arms against the United States and say the Defense Department in the past has described former detainees as rejoining "the fight" because they spoke out against the U.S. government.

    "The Defense Department sees that the Guantanamo detention operation has failed and they are trying to launch another fear mongering campaign to justify the indefinite detention of detainees there," said Jamil Dakwar, human rights director at the American Civil Liberties Union.

    President-elect Barack Obama, who takes office next Tuesday, is expected to issue an executive order to close the Guantanamo Bay prison. Defense Secretary Robert Gates also favors shuttering Guantanamo.

    But the prison is unlikely to shut until after U.S. officials settle a myriad of legal and logistic issues, including a solution on where to house its occupants.

    About 255 men are still held at the U.S.-run naval base in Cuba, a symbol of aggressive interrogation methods that exposed the United States to allegations of torture.

    Pentagon officials say that about 110 detainees should never be released because of the potential danger they pose to U.S. interests.

    Washington has cleared 50 of the detainees for release but cannot return them to their home countries because of the risk they would be tortured or persecuted there.

    The Pentagon said it considers a former detainee's return to terrorism "confirmed" when evidence shows direct involvement in terrorist activities. U.S. officials see a "suspected" terrorism links when intelligence shows a plausible link with terrorist activities.

    "Propaganda does not qualify as a terrorist activity," the Pentagon said in a statement.
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    If they had held military tribunals and smoked their sorry a$$es instead of giving them the same rights we have, there would be 61 less terrorists in the world. They were unlawful combatants and don't deserve the be tried under the US criminal justice system period!!!!

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    The question is how does the Constitution apply. Since the Geneva Conventions are not in our Constitution, we need not consider them in how we treat foreigners (lawful combatants or not) on foreign soil. Our constitution should prevail in cases where it involves a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil Where the issue becomes gray, however, is when the accused is from a foreign land on foreign soil. I'm still on the fence as to whether Gitmo and the secret CIA prisons are Constitutional. Just because we don't want these combatants to have the same rights as U.S. prisoners doesn't mean they aren't entitled to them. However, since the Constitution is silent on this, it would not technically violate the Constitution to do what's currently be done.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

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    Angry What is wrong with you people?

    Guantanamo is a national embarrassment and international proof of our moral decay. This is the kind of crap the Nazi's pulled. My family has not sacrificed its sons on the altar of American freedom and liberty so that we could take suspected wrongdoers, put them on American soil (an American base is our soil), and then deny them any right to due process. Didn't we complain when the Soviet Union did the exact same thing sending people to the stalags in Siberia? It is simply wrong. It is the opposite of what WE are supposed to represent. When the Soviets ship off a bunch of Afghans who were shooting at them, we called it a human rights violation. However, when we do it that makes it okay? What happened to being a nation of principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster20 View Post
    They were unlawful combatants and don't deserve the be tried under the US criminal justice system period!!!!
    Make no mistake, Glockster. IF you let them get away with this kind of crap with a bunch of peasants from Afghanistan, how long do you think it will be until it happens to us? ESPECIALLY to us. If there is ever a serious gun grab and second amendment supporters have to put some teeth in their resistance, how long do you think it would take the government to classify US as "unlawful combatants"?

    It is time to stop paying lip service to "christian values" and stand up for what is right. Honestly, most of the initial prisoners at Gitmo were wrong place, wrong time cases. THAT is why no one was convicted, or even tried. It is a big surprise that a bunch of innocent men (they have not released ANYONE on which they have decent evidence) have, after being illegally detained, separated for years from their families, and tortured, begun fighting back against the people who wronged them. My god, wouldn't you do the same? When we do it, we call it patriotic resistance. We TURNED most of those guys INTO terrorists.

    Right is right, and wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter WHO is on the receiving end. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.

  6. #5
    We'll see half of these guys again if they are released. You just have to hope they don't kill anyone before we can kill them.

    We're affording these individuals a helluva lot more due process than Al Qaeda ever afforded any of their victims whether they were Americans, Iraqis or Afghanis. That seems lost on the Obamaniacs but they're about to learn first hand that Muslim extremists don't play by the GC rules or any other but their own. Charisma is a poor substitute for leadership, Clinton proved that, Obama may just reinforce the point.

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    Since the Geneva Conventions are not in our Constitution,
    Not only does the Constitution not apply to these terrorists, neither does the Geneva Conventions. These guys hide among the civilians which is one of the reasons the Geneva Convention doesn't protect them. Their actions put civilians at greater risk and do not follow the rules of war.

    Where the issue becomes gray, however, is when the accused is from a foreign land on foreign soil.
    It's not gray at all. It's black and white. There are no protections given by the Constitution to non-resident, non-citizens. Nor are there any protections (Geneva Convention or otherwise) given to spies, terrorists who hide among the citizens of a country putting them at greater risk.

    Just because we don't want these combatants to have the same rights as U.S. prisoners doesn't mean they aren't entitled to them.
    It's not about what "we want" or "don't want", it's about the facts. They are not covered by the Constitution, there's nothing in the Constitution to cover them. We either deal with the Supreme Law of the land or we simply make it up as we go along.
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    is the kind of crap the Nazi's pulled.
    What are you talking about? What are the specifics? Not the left wing malarkey put out by a lying press, what are the facts?

    and then deny them any right to due process.
    Can you point out any "due process" anywhere for prisoners who are not citizens, who were taken on a battlefield, who were not members of an recognized army, who fought without uniforms, who hid within civilian populations? Particularly while the war with these terrorists is still going on?

    Didn't we complain when the Soviet Union did the exact same thing sending people to the stalags in Siberia?
    No, because it wasn't even slightly the same thing.

    how long do you think it would take the government to classify US as "unlawful combatants"?
    No doubt that is what WE would be according to the rules of war. That's why if you engage in an unconventional war, you had better win. It's also nice if you are fighting for freedom and liberty which we would be rather than a political dictatorship which they were fighting for.

    Honestly, most of the initial prisoners at Gitmo were wrong place, wrong time cases.
    Probably not as we've seen with the recidivism of many of those we have released.

    It is a big surprise that a bunch of innocent men (they have not released ANYONE on which they have decent evidence) have, after being illegally detained, separated for years from their families, and tortured, begun fighting back against the people who wronged them.
    These are religious nutcases who are not fighting over being personally "wronged". Of course turning them loose seems to be putting our people at greater risk. These people are nuts. Trying to treat them as normal, honest, decent humans only puts our people at risk.

    We TURNED most of those guys INTO terrorists.
    That is the whine we here from terrorists, fools, socialists, and the usual leftists who would destroy the country either deliberately or as an unintended consequence.

    Right is right, and wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter WHO is on the receiving end. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.
    That's true, and aiding and abetting the enemies of our country is wrong.
    Maybejim

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    Exclamation Agree or disagree, let's not get personal here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    This is the kind of crap the Nazi's pulled.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    What are you talking about? What are the specifics? Not the left wing malarkey put out by a lying press, what are the facts?
    What the heck does the "lying press" have to do with the Nazi's rounding up people and detaining them without a trial? I don't need the press to tell me this. I have the history books, as well as first hand accounts from my grandfather who was there at the Mauthausen liberation. Maybe you should check into the Nazi “protective custody” laws. Read the following and see if you can find any similarity:

    Law and Justice in the Third Reich

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    and then deny them any right to due process.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    Can you point out any "due process" anywhere for prisoners who are not citizens, who were taken on a battlefield, who were not members of an recognized army, who fought without uniforms, who hid within civilian populations? Particularly while the war with these terrorists is still going on?
    Um, yes. It was called "The American Revolution". And the minute they hit U.S. soil, they get the right to due process. Gitmo is U.S. soil. Period. To accept it as less puts ALL of us in danger.

    The part that you obviously have not researched is the fact that the Majority of these individuals, by far, are people that operatives of our government paid to inform on them. Think about it for a moment; there is some guy you don't like, and then there are some foreign guys offering you more money than you see in a year to report secret fighters, no proof other than that guys word. That is why these guys never saw anything resembling a lawyer; it was a travesty of justice!

    Look, I fully support our fighting men and women. You see some guy coming at you with an AK, waste his *****. I am not crying for those scumbags. However, rounding up a "bunch of Habibs" is not going to make us safer, it's not going to cut down on terrorism (actually increases it), and it is simply morally wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    Didn't we complain when the Soviet Union did the exact same thing sending people to the stalags in Siberia?
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    No, because it wasn't even slightly the same thing.
    "Thousands of young Afghans are being shipped to the Soviet Union for "reeducation" in summer camps, universities, and specialized institutions." Know who said that? Ronald Reagan (12/27/1985). Hardly a left wing media source:

    Soviet occupation of Afghanistan | US Department of State Bulletin | Find Articles at BNET


    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    how long do you think it would take the government to classify US as "unlawful combatants"?
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    No doubt that is what WE would be according to the rules of war. That's why if you engage in an unconventional war, you had better win. It's also nice if you are fighting for freedom and liberty which we would be rather than a political dictatorship which they were fighting for.
    First, let me ask that, if you are going to quote me, at least quote the entire sentence so that it feels less like you are trying to twist my words. I will keep your thoughts in context; I ask that you do me the same courtesy. The first part of my sentence was "If there is ever a serious gun grab and second amendment supporters have to put some teeth in their resistance,". That said, from your reply I see that you would agree that the government would treat U.S. Citizens who resisted the same as these so-called "enemy combatants". Already the mindset is there, and we are talking about US! Do you not see how insidious this mind set is? Already you are enured to to this kind of treatment because of Gitmo. Wake up, Jim.

    "A bill of rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth, general or particular, and what no just government should to rest on inference." This was claimed by that crazy leftist Thomas Jefferson. According to the author of our constitution, which so many on this forum claim to love and live by, those rights that we have should be extended to the world at large. Therefore, anyone is due the right to due process under our government, no matter where the are, no matter who they are. Sweet lord above, how in the hell can you condone locking up a man, not telling him why, not telling anyone else you have him, not allowing him any kind of a trial or hearing, not allowing any contact with any kind of counsel or family, torturing him, and then maybe turning him loose with no explanation and no apology. What kind of government does that?!? I said it before, and I will say it again: We have lost our moral authority in this world. We can not lower our standards just because others do. We treated our POW's far better than the Germans and the Japanese because it was the right thing to do, not because they deserved better than our guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    Honestly, most of the initial prisoners at Gitmo were wrong place, wrong time cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    Probably not as we've seen with the recidivism of many of those we have released.
    Recidivism is the wrong word to use, Jim. We made these guys at Gitmo. Read my point above once more: If you went through that and you were innocent, what would your reaction be? Maybe if one is a coward, they might be thankful for the eventual mercy of being released. As for me, if I was innocent and went through the hell they put those guys through, I would do everything in my power to hurt the fascists (just like the Nazi's, Jim) that did it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    It is a big surprise that a bunch of innocent men (they have not released ANYONE on which they have decent evidence) have, after being illegally detained, separated for years from their families, and tortured, begun fighting back against the people who wronged them.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    These are religious nutcases who are not fighting over being personally "wronged". Of course turning them loose seems to be putting our people at greater risk. These people are nuts. Trying to treat them as normal, honest, decent humans only puts our people at risk.
    I am honestly flabbergasted over how you can say that none of these people are fighting over being "personally wronged". How many of them have you talked to, Jim? Do you have a son, Jim? Maybe a brother? Perhaps your father is still alive? Why don't you let me come over and do to one of them for, say, 24 hours what we did for years to these guys. Then you tell me how you wouldn't try to kill me for "personally wronging" you. What you don't seem to get is that human beings are intrinsically the same all over the planet. We are much more similar than we are different. Thinking of them as less than normal human beings is so simplistic and wrong that it stretches the credibility of your other arguments.

    As for your "religious nutcases" comment, obviously you are forgetting that many here would be considered a religious nutcase by the world. My grandmother is pentecostal; ever been to one of their services? That group would definitely be considered "religious nutcases". Does that mean I should stand by and let someone kidnap her and hurt her at Gitmo? I would go down shooting before I would allow that. Religious nutcase or not, Christian, Muslim, or Jew, people have a God given right to live peaceably until the try to take that right away from other peaceable people. Just because I say that "that Jim guy has some guns and shoots at American soldiers from the hills" so that I can get a little cash and get rid of a guy that I don't like at the same time, does that give the government the right to do to you what they have done to most of these guys? Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    We TURNED most of those guys INTO terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    That is the whine we here from terrorists, fools, socialists, and the usual leftists who would destroy the country either deliberately or as an unintended consequence.
    First, let me say that my statement is a statement of fact, not a "whine". I am not a terrorist, socialist, leftist, and especially not a fool. I am interested in keeping the discourse civil, so let me simply say that I see letting the power brokers in government (regardless of party) dismantle the foundation that our country was built upon to be immoral. If you would spend a few moments honestly and critically considering this issue from other points of view, I think that you might realize that there might be more to the issue than a few patriotic "Hell yeah!'s" can cover. I love this country, Jim. I have served it, and my family has served it. That said, I do not like what I am seeing it become. I agree with most here when I say that Obama is likely to take us far left, and I don't like it. However, with things like Gitmo and the laughably named "Patriot" act, the Republicans have given him many of the tools he needs for the job. Real patriots think, not feel. I know that it feels good to say "Nuke'em all!" Sometimes that is how I feel. But you can't be lazy and just parrot what someone says is patriotic. Don't you get it? Most of the Republican members of government and most of the Democrat members of government are far closer to one another than they will ever be to us. Don't believe it just because President X or Congressman Y says it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomboy007 View Post
    Right is right, and wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter WHO is on the receiving end. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by maybejim View Post
    That's true, and aiding and abetting the enemies of our country is wrong.


    Nothing but personal in that last one, Jim. Suffice it to say that if someone were to call me a traitor in person, they would receive a bit more than a scary sentence in ALLCAPS. I am asking you as a fellow citizen not to do that again. Thanks.

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    What the heck does the "lying press" have to do with the Nazi's rounding up people and detaining them without a trial?
    What does the Nazi's rounding up people and detaining them without a trial have to do with the United States?

    However, rounding up a "bunch of Habibs" is not going to make us safer, it's not going to cut down on terrorism (actually increases it), and it is simply morally wrong.
    A statement which has nothing to do with anything since that isn't what has happened.

    "Thousands of young Afghans are being shipped to the Soviet Union for "reeducation" in summer camps, universities, and specialized institutions."
    You are continuing on with statements that have nothing to do with the United States. Just throwing out things doesn't make any kind of a point.

    ,". That said, from your reply I see that you would agree that the government would treat U.S. Citizens who resisted the same as these so-called "enemy combatants". Already the mindset is there, and we are talking about US! Do you not see how insidious this mind set is?
    Again you are talking about wild scenarios that have nothing to do with anything the United States has done. Clearly if the US government started rounding up lawfully and Constitutionally owned guns from US citizens that out of control government would treat resisters as enemy combatants. So what? That has no relationship to what the US has done in Afghanistan and Iraq. We were and are at war and were and are being attacked by enemy combatants who are not any part of a recognized army. They are not US Citizens, they are not legal combatants. They have no protection from the Constitution or the Geneva Convention.

    Therefore, anyone is due the right to due process under our government,
    Terrorists captured in foreign lands are not "under our government". Prisoners of war were routinely held without "due process" in virtually all previous wars. These terrorists, saboteurs, have no rights under any treaty or set of laws. They endanger civilians and by their actions are the scum of the earth. If they want "due process" let them fight in a uniform as part of an army otherwise they are subject to summary judgment and execution. We have treated them far better than they deserved.

    We treated our POW's far better than the Germans and the Japanese because it was the right thing to do, not because they deserved better than our guys.
    We continue to treat POW's better than do the enemy, but we are not talking about POW's.

    Why don't you let me come over and do to one of them for, say, 24 hours what we did for years to these guys.
    Ha! Ha! Ha! You are hysterical. Our treatment of this scum of the earth, has been humane and reasonable. You have yet to even list what you are so weirded out about, much less offer any evidence. If my son's or father did what these guys did, I'd be right in there working to get whatever traitorous information they might have from them. Of course they are citizens of this country and we aren't talking about citizens of this country.

    We made these guys at Gitmo.
    Ha! Ha! Ha! Yeah, we went into their homes and snatched them just for the heck of it. We didn't take them off the battlefield. We didn't have any evidence of their being terrorist pigs. What an imagination you have!

    Religious nutcase or not, Christian, Muslim, or Jew, people have a God given right to live peaceably until the try to take that right away from other peaceable people.
    Wow! You almost get it. The fact is they did try to take that right away from others. Most were taken off the battlefields.

    Just because I say that "that Jim guy has some guns and shoots at American soldiers from the hills" so that I can get a little cash and get rid of a guy that I don't like at the same time, does that give the government the right to do to you what they have done to most of these guys? Absolutely not.
    Thank goodness you haven't been running anything. War is not pretty, not kind, and not full of clear facts and evidence. Afghanistan is not like the streets of Chicago (though at times it is safer).

    First, let me say that my statement is a statement of fact, not a "whine".
    That's an opinion that I couldn't agree with. The fact is you have made lots of statements and innuendo's but you have given us no facts about the "wrongs" of the United States. I specifically asked you to give us the specifics of what you are trying to infer and you are yet to even slightly approach that.

    I am not a terrorist, socialist, leftist, and especially not a fool. I am interested in keeping the discourse civil,
    You certainly are one who has given vague attacks and disparaged the United States. If you have some specifics, some actual facts, give them to us. Otherwise you need be dismissed as some wild eyed Bush hater.

    However, with things like Gitmo and the laughably named "Patriot" act, the Republicans have given him many of the tools he needs for the job.
    Clearly you either haven't paid attention to actual facts or you want to ignore them. Democrats and Republicans both voted for the "Patriot" act. There have been virtually no documented abuses of Americans under the Patriot act.

    This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the lies of the press. They haven't actually said anything but they have hinted that there must be problems without listing evidence or facts. It has been a dishonest attack on the government. Yes there have been mistakes made but largely the Main Stream Media has been dishonest and weak thinking has allowed many Americans to be misled.

    Most of the Republican members of government and most of the Democrat members of government are far closer to one another than they will ever be to us.
    That's true.

    Don't believe it just because President X or Congressman Y says it.
    I'm not the one who has been hysterical about innuendo and baseless attacks.

    Nothing but personal in that last one, Jim.
    Since I did not accuse you personally of doing anything, it clearly wasn't personal.

    I am asking you as a fellow citizen not to do that again.
    I would ask you to read exactly what is said and not let your imagination run wild. I will repeat, if you have some specifics, some actual facts, please give them to us but these vague wild hints of something (it's hard to tell exactly what) used to attack America (really only the Bush Administration) is nothing more than the regurgitation of the dishonest left/MSM.
    Maybejim

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    Cool No talking with you, Jim.

    You are not even thinking about what is discussed, you are just jumping in with "You're being vague". Well, I don't think the others, whether they agree or disagree with what I am saying, would characterize my posts as vague. Moving on.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

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