HB 142 Eliminate need when stopped to notify carrying firearm.
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Thread: HB 142 Eliminate need when stopped to notify carrying firearm.

  1. HB 142 Eliminate need when stopped to notify carrying firearm.

    You still have to notify if/when asked.

    One of the biggest issues is that it is up to the officer to decide if you notified "promptly". It is also up to them to decide if you notified properly. And, if they decide otherwise, you are arrested, jailed, charged with an M1 and loss of license. On top of that, many officers are unclear on the law and hassle people who are *not* required to notify because they are not carrying. We have story after story of people ending up in a bind over this - it is the single most frequent issue that licensees get hassled or arrested over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohioans For Concealed Carry
    [W]e have story after story where good people get jacked up over it because it is a legal requirement. In one case, according to the dash camera, a young man notified 51 seconds into an encounter with law enforcement, was arrested, jailed, went to trial and had to spend $10,000+ of his own money to fight it and was found not guilty. In another, Officer Harless (search YouTube for that one) completely botched an encounter with a licensee who was attempting to notify, and the list goes on. Mandatory notification, especially where the penalty is an M1 and loss of license, is bad law. Only 10 states require it, and the states without it don't seem to have issues. Also, check the Toledo Law Review from Fall 2012 "Firearm Notification Laws Put Concealed Carriers In Law Enforcement Sights" (44 U. Tol. L. Rev. 179) for an in-depth analysis.
    Refrences:


    This is not only about driving. This law currently applies any time you are stopped by a cop for a law enforcement purpose, even if walking on the sidewalk. Some cops have misunderstood this law to mean you have to notify when the cop strikes up a casual conversation with you at the grocery store while standing line.

    Should this repeal pass, you still have to notify when asked. What this repeal does is remove the amiguity. If the cop wants to know, they ask, and you notify. That's it. If they don't ask because it's not germane to why you were pulled over, and you don't tell because it's not germane to why you were pulled over, no crime occured.

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  3. #2
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    You can bet the Ohio FOP will fight this tooth and nail. Possibly the Buckeye Sheriff's Association also. I hope Ohio Republicans have the spine to stand up to them.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by rt48 View Post
    You can bet the Ohio FOP will fight this tooth and nail. Possibly the Buckeye Sheriff's Association also. I hope Ohio Republicans have the spine to stand up to them.
    Here's how I've gone about this and it has always worked:

    Encounter LEO for any reason and conversation ensues:
    "Officer just so you know, I'm legally armed."

    If it's a traffic stop that's the first thing out of my mouth, with the engine turned off, hazard lights on, interior lights on if dark outside, window down and both hands on the wheel with my ID's and stuff in hand.

    When not in a vehicle, if LEO or I just exchange "hello" and are moving on, notification is not given.
    As quick as a conversation looks to be starting, notification is given, "Officer, so you're aware, I'm legally carrying."

    LE typically sees us as "good guys" with guns who would most likely help them out if they were pinned down under fire...of course that can bring up endless hypothetical what-if scenarios that we must evaluate on a case by case basis, but that topic isn't what we're taking about.

    So in my experience, if it's more than a "good afternoon" or whatever, I just casually state I'm legally armed, and do so as if it's no big deal because it isn't, and continue with whatever interaction is happening.

    May be that there are cops outside my locality that respond differently, but where I live and on the interstate w/Highway Patrolmen, this has worked well for me.

    As for the actual law and whether or not I like it, I don't have any problem at all doing as I've stated. LE is doing a job and if I were them it would alleviate any suspicion if someone was up front and matter of fact about it. Would inform me of a variable in my equation of safety for myself and others.

    I'd of course prefer not to have to inform, but given the current state of society I also understand if the requirement is to do so & have no problem with it.

    Thats my $0.02. :) and probably that's precisely what it's worth!



    USAF(Ret)

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    ...As quick as a conversation looks to be starting, notification is given, "Officer, so you're aware, I'm legally carrying."
    Perhaps the best ad-copy I've ever seen to drive home the point that you should never voluntarily talk to cops.

    Or, as Ron White would say, "That time when you know you have right to remain silent, but don't have the ability."
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  6. Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Perhaps the best ad-copy I've ever seen to drive home the point that you should never voluntarily talk to cops.

    Or, as Ron White would say, "That time when you know you have right to remain silent, but don't have the ability."
    Funny and sad simultaneously

    I don't break any laws so am not hesitant to speak to a cop in a non-official setting.
    Maybe I'm lucky-all the cops in my area are very nice, profesional, willing to help people, etc.
    I also happen to be familiar with a lot of them in my township.


    At any rate, I'm not sure why I wouldn't allow myself be in a casual conversation with an officer. Perhaps you could explain why you think we should never voluntarily talk to cops?

    Not trying to start anything . Would like to hear y you say that.

    Thx,
    ~S


    USAF(Ret)

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    Funny and sad simultaneously

    I don't break any laws so am not hesitant to speak to a cop in a non-official setting.
    A whipped cur doesn't break any laws before he gets whipped by an owner of a mindset to do so either. The beating hurts, and has the potential to injure or kill nonetheless. Maybe the cur was just barking (asserting his dissent and/or disagreement with being chained up) to "earn" the beating, same as talking to someone who possesses the full blessings of government, or at the very least, vastly reduced consequences from government at every level, to claim "fear for his/her life" (when there is irrefutable proof that no reason for fear was present) and injure or kill you when all you did was straighten your legs when he had told you, a known schizophrenic homeless man, to cross them. Since the dry reporter's narrative doesn't begin to adequately describe the brutality that Kelly Thomas died from five days later, security video (with audio from the cops' body-cams synced and overlaid) is provided at that link to fill in the blanks. I dare you to spend the 30-some-odd minutes watching and listening to that event, and then come back and tell everybody how great cops are.

    Or in another case of a cop getting much less for downing a scrawny little schizophrenic young man, and then shooting him in the head, whose parents had called to help them calm down, a voluntary manslaughter charge is all that came out of Byron Vassey's putting a bullet in Keith Vidal's brain because, as he was heard to say at the time, "I don't have time for this."

    Oh, and cops are never in a "non-official" setting except when in the privacy of their own homes, where they are 2 -4 times as likely to be abusive to their "loved" ones as any other single grouping of "professionals" amongst the wider human race. The odds of them never being held accountable for domestic violence is probably as immeasurable as the odds of them being held as accountable as us lowly citizens for the same acts of violence/murder out on the streets in their regular duty-hours of patrol and other "official" capacities, which, BTW, they are never fully relieved from as they are on-call 24/7.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    Maybe I'm lucky-all the cops in my area are very nice, profesional, willing to help people, etc.
    There is a huge difference between being lucky, and being unable or unwilling to see what cops in your area are doing every minute of every day. It is quite literally impossible to be a "good cop" these days, if it was indeed ever possible to begin with. All you have to do is read the Bill of Rights and test the language of that document against what cops are not only allowed to do these days, but are actually telling the truth when they yell in your face that they're, "...just doing my job!" That was the defense in the Cicinelli/Ramos trial for killing Kelly Thomas, and it worked like a charm to get them a hung jury for which the DA that did everything he could think of to get out of prosecuting them in the first place (likely because he knew that "doing their job" was enough of a defense for idiot jurors who can't see past the badge), refused to retry the case, and it will very likely be one version or another of the same defense in the Byron Vessey trial for the killing of Keith Vidal, and even if he gets convicted for voluntary manslaughter, an already-reduced charge compared to that of a lowly citizen, he will likely only get sentenced to two or three years and serve less than half of that just like Johannes Mehserle got for murdering Oscar Grant as he laid on his stomach with his hands handcuffed behind his back just below where he was shot! (I rarely, if ever, use Wikipedia for a source, but that Oscar Grant one is from there, and that's only because 1) there are so few unknown facts about the Oscar Grant killing for Wiki to get wrong, and 2) I don't get the impression that you're likely to be checking my sources, or familiarizing yourself with the facts of any of the cases I'm referencing here, so what's the point in trying to be thorough in finding just the right source?)

    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    I also happen to be familiar with a lot of them in my township.
    "Familiar with" and being in a position to say unequivocally that, "...all the cops in my area are very nice, profesional, willing to help people, etc." are not sentences that belong next to each other in quick succession. I'm "familiar with" the cops in my area too, which is precisely why I stick like glue to the axiom(s) I first replied to you with in a more or less joking fashion. I'm familiar with their complaint records, and to the extent possible, I'm familiar with the details of what the public complained about them over and the disposition, if any. I'm also familiar with their salaries, benefit packages, time in service, rates of promotion and the ratio of citizen complaints to those rates of promotion, which gives one a very vivid perspective from which to judge exactly what "just doing their jobs" really means to their commanders. While I don't live "in," but only close to Dothan, AL, just do a quick search on Dothan's police department controversies and prepare yourself for a rude awakening of just how unfamiliar you likely are with your own cop-shop and the cops who populate it. And in Dothan, the Chief of Police whose department is being investigated for hundreds of civil rights complaints and who can be seen here pictured alongside the vast majority of his white officers...



    ....makes right at $42 bucks an hour base pay, with no info that I could find for his benefits, but which even conservatively estimating, would put him up in the $150K to $180K range. You can buy a lot of pointy hats made out of bed-sheets with that kind of dough!

    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    At any rate, I'm not sure why I wouldn't allow myself be in a casual conversation with an officer. Perhaps you could explain why you think we should never voluntarily talk to cops?

    Not trying to start anything . Would like to hear y you say that.

    Thx
    I knew before you posted it that you're not sure why you shouldn't talk to cops. Hopefully I've started to answer that question before I got to it in the post, but if not, either "debunk" what I've written thus far, or ask for more, because believe me, I've only scratched the thinnest of layers of examples off the top of my head with links already bookmarked. There are thousands of examples between newspaper accounts, YouTube (and other sites) videos, court cases and current law that all add up to making the axiom "never voluntarily talk to cops" the smartest single piece of advice one citizen can give another if they care about that citizen protecting his rights and his own safety and security. That is the most concise explanation I can give to your above question, because I do care that you don't relinquish your rights by voluntarily talking to cops who your misguided judgment has not already made you wary of.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  8. Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    A whipped cur doesn't break any laws before he gets whipped by an owner of a mindset to do so either. The beating hurts, and has the potential to injure or kill nonetheless. Maybe the cur was just barking (asserting his dissent and/or disagreement with being chained up) to "earn" the beating, same as talking to someone who possesses the full blessings of government, or at the very least, vastly reduced consequences from government at every level, to claim "fear for his/her life" (when there is irrefutable proof that no reason for fear was present) and injure or kill you when all you did was straighten your legs when he had told you, a known schizophrenic homeless man, to cross them. Since the dry reporter's narrative doesn't begin to adequately describe the brutality that Kelly Thomas died from five days later, security video (with audio from the cops' body-cams synced and overlaid) is provided at that link to fill in the blanks. I dare you to spend the 30-some-odd minutes watching and listening to that event, and then come back and tell everybody how great cops are.

    Or in another case of a cop getting much less for downing a scrawny little schizophrenic young man, and then shooting him in the head, whose parents had called to help them calm down, a voluntary manslaughter charge is all that came out of Byron Vassey's putting a bullet in Keith Vidal's brain because, as he was heard to say at the time, "I don't have time for this."

    Oh, and cops are never in a "non-official" setting except when in the privacy of their own homes, where they are 2 -4 times as likely to be abusive to their "loved" ones as any other single grouping of "professionals" amongst the wider human race. The odds of them never being held accountable for domestic violence is probably as immeasurable as the odds of them being held as accountable as us lowly citizens for the same acts of violence/murder out on the streets in their regular duty-hours of patrol and other "official" capacities, which, BTW, they are never fully relieved from as they are on-call 24/7.



    There is a huge difference between being lucky, and being unable or unwilling to see what cops in your area are doing every minute of every day. It is quite literally impossible to be a "good cop" these days, if it was indeed ever possible to begin with. All you have to do is read the Bill of Rights and test the language of that document against what cops are not only allowed to do these days, but are actually telling the truth when they yell in your face that they're, "...just doing my job!" That was the defense in the Cicinelli/Ramos trial for killing Kelly Thomas, and it worked like a charm to get them a hung jury for which the DA that did everything he could think of to get out of prosecuting them in the first place (likely because he knew that "doing their job" was enough of a defense for idiot jurors who can't see past the badge), refused to retry the case, and it will very likely be one version or another of the same defense in the Byron Vessey trial for the killing of Keith Vidal, and even if he gets convicted for voluntary manslaughter, an already-reduced charge compared to that of a lowly citizen, he will likely only get sentenced to two or three years and serve less than half of that just like Johannes Mehserle got for murdering Oscar Grant as he laid on his stomach with his hands handcuffed behind his back just below where he was shot! (I rarely, if ever, use Wikipedia for a source, but that Oscar Grant one is from there, and that's only because 1) there are so few unknown facts about the Oscar Grant killing for Wiki to get wrong, and 2) I don't get the impression that you're likely to be checking my sources, or familiarizing yourself with the facts of any of the cases I'm referencing here, so what's the point in trying to be thorough in finding just the right source?)



    "Familiar with" and being in a position to say unequivocally that, "...all the cops in my area are very nice, profesional, willing to help people, etc." are not sentences that belong next to each other in quick succession. I'm "familiar with" the cops in my area too, which is precisely why I stick like glue to the axiom(s) I first replied to you with in a more or less joking fashion. I'm familiar with their complaint records, and to the extent possible, I'm familiar with the details of what the public complained about them over and the disposition, if any. I'm also familiar with their salaries, benefit packages, time in service, rates of promotion and the ratio of citizen complaints to those rates of promotion, which gives one a very vivid perspective from which to judge exactly what "just doing their jobs" really means to their commanders. While I don't live "in," but only close to Dothan, AL, just do a quick search on Dothan's police department controversies and prepare yourself for a rude awakening of just how unfamiliar you likely are with your own cop-shop and the cops who populate it. And in Dothan, the Chief of Police whose department is being investigated for hundreds of civil rights complaints and who can be seen here pictured alongside the vast majority of his white officers...



    ....makes right at $42 bucks an hour base pay, with no info that I could find for his benefits, but which even conservatively estimating, would put him up in the $150K to $180K range. You can buy a lot of pointy hats made out of bed-sheets with that kind of dough!



    I knew before you posted it that you're not sure why you shouldn't talk to cops. Hopefully I've started to answer that question before I got to it in the post, but if not, either "debunk" what I've written thus far, or ask for more, because believe me, I've only scratched the thinnest of layers of examples off the top of my head with links already bookmarked. There are thousands of examples between newspaper accounts, YouTube (and other sites) videos, court cases and current law that all add up to making the axiom "never voluntarily talk to cops" the smartest single piece of advice one citizen can give another if they care about that citizen protecting his rights and his own safety and security. That is the most concise explanation I can give to your above question, because I do care that you don't relinquish your rights by voluntarily talking to cops who your misguided judgment has not already made you wary of.

    Blues
    Wow dude, you seem to be venting a lot of anger and frustration!


    May God grant you peace, and I hope you have a happy Easter.

    Blessings,

    ~S


    USAF(Ret)

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    Funny and sad simultaneously

    I don't break any laws so am not hesitant to speak to a cop in a non-official setting.
    Maybe I'm lucky-all the cops in my area are very nice, profesional, willing to help people, etc.
    I also happen to be familiar with a lot of them in my township.


    At any rate, I'm not sure why I wouldn't allow myself be in a casual conversation with an officer. Perhaps you could explain why you think we should never voluntarily talk to cops?

    Not trying to start anything . Would like to hear y you say that.

    Thx,
    ~S


    USAF(Ret)
    Duty to notify laws and voluntarily notifying has been discussed in this forum quite a bit. Understand that duty to notify laws apply only to legal carriers, as the criminal has his 5th Amendment right.

    Notifying an officer, voluntarily or by law, does provide the officer with the legal opportunity to disarm you for officer safety and to check if you actually are legally carrying, which can only complicate things. Philando Castile got shot and killed for notifying Officer Jeronimo Yanez, because notifying an officer does not put him at ease and Officer Yanez was afraid of his own shadow.

    I also advise against having a casual conversation with any LEO that stopped you. You often do not know that you are actually breaking a law until you have told an officer about it and he is arresting you. The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) comes to mind. Also, officers often do not know the current law and you may get arrested for violating a law that doesn't exist anymore.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by bofh View Post
    Duty to notify laws and voluntarily notifying has been discussed in this forum quite a bit. Understand that duty to notify laws apply only to legal carriers, as the criminal has his 5th Amendment right.

    Notifying an officer, voluntarily or by law, does provide the officer with the legal opportunity to disarm you for officer safety and to check if you actually are legally carrying, which can only complicate things. Philando Castile got shot and killed for notifying Officer Jeronimo Yanez, because notifying an officer does not put him at ease and Officer Yanez was afraid of his own shadow.

    I also advise against having a casual conversation with any LEO that stopped you. You often do not know that you are actually breaking a law until you have told an officer about it and he is arresting you. The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) comes to mind. Also, officers often do not know the current law and you may get arrested for violating a law that doesn't exist anymore.
    Duly noted, but my style works for me where I live. Am fairly sure our township LEO's all know me, as do several sheriff's deputies, and like I'd said, no problems have occurred.

    Here's an example: Car died in the middle of a busy street at lunchtime. Summer heat, was driving my elderly mother.
    Responding officer recognized me, helped get my mom into an air conditioned establishment. I am disabled and have some difficulties with heat due to a medicine. Walked back to the squad car, showed military ID & CHL, said I needed a/c too, guy has me sit in the rear, after being told I was armed & didn't close the center window, and started a conversation with me while we waited for the tow truck.
    Didn't seem he was concerned with me, and definitely didn't need to be.

    Soooo, I don't have any reason to hesitate speaking to, or being legally obligated to inform, OR voluntarily informing.

    I s'pose other areas may be very different, but I stick to what I said in the OP in my area:)



    USAF(Ret)

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmiddySW View Post
    Wow dude, you seem to be venting a lot of anger and frustration!
    You asked, I answered. I provided links and examples to substantiate my position(s). Bofh added reasons that also contribute to my position(s). I showed no anger at all. I was simply straightforward and blunt. Volunteering to talk to cops is no different than volunteering to have the IRS audit your tax returns. Let us know when you do that on the basis that you "don't break any laws." The reason the Fifth Amendment was penned is that its authors and signers well knew that talking to government officials (at any level) is an invitation for it to work its will upon you. That is government's nature. Nature doesn't anger or frustrate me, its most dangerous aspects simply make me wary of it. Government in all its various form is nothing more complicated than brute force. Brute force is never friendly, never interested in what you have to say, and always on the hunt for places and people where it can apply force with impunity. For government, its hunting grounds are target-rich environments because another part of its nature is the inherent ability to brainwash its victims into believing it is benevolent, friendly, and caring, combining to validate in the mass's collective mind its own manufactured myth that there's no reason to fear it. I proved to you, and bofh provided a case which should do the same (Philando Castille), that there is much to fear from those who suffer no consequences when they screw up on the job.

    Rather than me being angry or frustrated, it appears from where I'm sitting that you're angry that someone actually answered a question you posed in such a way as to prevent you from rebutting it, because there is no rebuttal to truth. That is to say, I told you the truth and you gave zero reply to it, and instead tried to make me out to possess traits that you couldn't possibly know the truth of. In other words, you got nothin', which was fairly apparent when I said in my previous post, "(I rarely, if ever, use Wikipedia for a source, but that Oscar Grant one is from there, and that's only because 1) there are so few unknown facts about the Oscar Grant killing for Wiki to get wrong, and 2) I don't get the impression that you're likely to be checking my sources, or familiarizing yourself with the facts of any of the cases I'm referencing here, so what's the point in trying to be thorough in finding just the right source?)."

    Obviously no point at all, so fare thee well, I'm out.

    Oh, wait, one more thing. Look at the pic and correctly identify the following people for extra credit:

    Who is,

    1) Government
    2) The cop (government's enforcer)
    3) You (SmiddySW)
    4) Me (BluesStringer)

    Good luck:

    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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