Do firearm training schools recommend open cary? - Page 2
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Thread: Do firearm training schools recommend open cary?

  1. Quote Originally Posted by MONTANA View Post
    Because it wasn't about getting an answer to the question. I'll answer it myself. No reputable firearms instructor will tell a student that he/she is going to be in a better defensive situation openly carrying a firearm during normal daily activities, than if carrying concealed. I like to try and identify the people with and without common sense in any group of people with whom I communicate. You said "as far as provoking people, that is not my responsibility"----and you are carrying a lethal weapon? I think that is called a broken moral compass. Let me give you a scenario. You are walking through a park and practicing your right to carry openly. The homeless mentally ill sometimes congregate in public parks. In the park you have Daniel. Daniel is an ok guy when on medications but he has Schizophrenia which manifests itself in a paranoid delusion that the FBI is stalking him and is attempting to kill him. Lately the brain disorder has gotten worse and he has armed himself but Daniel is not very good with a firearm. Daniel sees your firearm and attempts to take you out in what he truly believes is "self-defense". He misses and kills one of the kids playing in the park, but you are easily able to take him out. Now what you are telling me is that the dead kid is not your responsibility? Again, as I said, I didn't ask the question to get an answer, just to clarify membership tactical decision making in my own mind.
    So let me understand this correctly, you asked a loaded question to further your point...? Ok..

    If by merely carrying a firearm openly I'm provoking someone- no its not my responsibility...As for your scenario, that doesn't make any sense. Of course the dead kid isn't my responsibility. If I'm wearing a black suit & sunglasses and he confuses me for the FBI am I in your opinion morally responsible? To answer your smug
    and you are carrying a lethal weapon?
    Yea, I do..

    I have a question for you- what credentials you to label something a "good" or "bad" tactic ? Any real world experience beyond a firing range or keyboard?
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    I don't see this, MONTANA, if I'm following the argument correctly. Suppose I'm carrying concealed and the wind blows my jacket open, ol' Daniel sees my weapon, thinks I am the FBI which he thinks is is stalking him and...shoots the kid. My fault? Nah...

    We certainly do have to recognize the responsibility we have in carrying (either OC or CC) but I don't think we can hope to mitigate any/every possibility, particularly where the outcome depends on other people's behavior.

    Do I understand correctly that, in your opinion, anyone who open carries, is completely wrong, defensively and/or tactically?
    and morally...
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  4. #13
    Do what YOU'RE comfortable doing. Use what works well for YOU.

    There are pros and cons for just about everything (though I struggle to see the 'pros' in this current regime) so it's always going to have to boil down to personal choice, based on personal preference, based on personal experience/ability etc.

    Other than being law-abiding, tax-paying citizens, the other KEY element that should separate us from any BG is training.

    We cannot control every aspect of every situation - but the stuff we CAN control, we better control well.

    Keep training, and stay trainable. As soon as you've determined you've got it all figured out, you're quickly becoming obsolete.

    Happy (& safe) New Year.
    "There is no consitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen." (7th Cir. 1982, Bowers v. DeVito)Stay safe, and stay trained.www.sazsatt.com

  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MONTANA View Post
    Let me give you a scenario. You are walking through a park and practicing your right to carry openly. The homeless mentally ill sometimes congregate in public parks. In the park you have Daniel. Daniel is an ok guy when on medications but he has Schizophrenia which manifests itself in a paranoid delusion that the FBI is stalking him and is attempting to kill him. Lately the brain disorder has gotten worse and he has armed himself but Daniel is not very good with a firearm. Daniel sees your firearm and attempts to take you out in what he truly believes is "self-defense". He misses and kills one of the kids playing in the park, but you are easily able to take him out. Now what you are telling me is that the dead kid is not your responsibility? Again, as I said, I didn't ask the question to get an answer, just to clarify membership tactical decision making in my own mind.
    Were you being serious?!? That's not a scenario, it's pure fantasy!

    There are screwballs out there with fears that are as incomprehensible as they are unpredictable. I was running during lunch on an Air Force Base (so unarmed) when a mentally challenged man of twice my size suddenly lunged at me (totally lost in thought and zero situational awareness). I jinked around him and kept on moving, with a huge adrenalin dump. All we could figure out is that maybe my mirrored Oakleys disturbed him in some way. Under your line of reasoning, how could I be prepared? No sunglasses? What if it was my shorts; no shorts? What if it was my shoes; go barefoot?

    I know a (female) surgeon who screamed and jumped behind me when she saw one of the giant slugs we have here in the Pacific Northwest, and she’s as sane as anyone!

    My point is that you cannot predict the unpredictable, nor should you ever make radical changes to your personal safety plans based on extremely remote risks.

  6. All good points and I apologize to everyone if I seemed smug as some have suggested. Here is what I believe regarding open carry. It presents potential problems that are unnecessary, and tactically, I want to reduce the number of factors that I have to consider when carrying a firearm. However I also have found that proponents of open carry either are willing to accept these increased risk factors, just be aware of them and try to increase their levels of awareness, ignore them, or deny-minimize them. The courts take the view that decisions we make have to be in line with the doctrine of "the reasonable man". Open carry has not been judged to be unreasonable in some jurisdictions. I can only speak for me in that open carry presents a risk I do not choose to take. In the mid to late 1970's large state hospitals begin discharging people back into the community. Therefore larger numbers of disturbed untreated people are on the streets. An exposed firearm can be an invitation to either a suicidal or homocidal person to attempt a weapon take-away. The element of surprise offered by concealed carry has absolutely been a factor in prevailing, based on the review of many after-incident reports.

  7. MONTANA-

    I can't speak for everyone. I have a C.C permit, and live in a "gold star state". MOST of the time I conceal. Sometimes I open carry, usually after getting bent out of shape at some ANTI on the news, or something happening here in town with a gun involved.

    Honestly, I'm not concerned about the "tactics" of either. If i'm in a store at the time of a robbery, or some mental case flips out i'm in a bad position- and happy to have options (a weapon) regardless of how it is carried.

    Tactically, there is an argument.

    Politically, there is none. I open carry honestly to make a statement that there can be a gun, and no one being hurt at the same time. I get "looks" every now and agian- but for the most part here is the situation:

    1. No one notices (usually the case....?)
    2. Someone notices and stares
    3. Someone notices and asks "are you a cop?". My response is "No, why!?" (lol). Then they ask about the gun. I just say that I think it important for everyone to understand that good guys carry guns too so maybe just maybe when they hear some politician saying "only bad guys need guns" or "guns kill people" you or someone else will remember the guy they saw in (name of place we're at) that had a gun and didn't rob anyone, didn't shoot anyone, just did what he was there for (eating, shopping) and left...


    Quote Originally Posted by MONTANA View Post
    All good points and I apologize to everyone if I seemed smug as some have suggested. Here is what I believe regarding open carry. It presents potential problems that are unnecessary, and tactically, I want to reduce the number of factors that I have to consider when carrying a firearm. However I also have found that proponents of open carry either are willing to accept these increased risk factors, just be aware of them and try to increase their levels of awareness, ignore them, or deny-minimize them. The courts take the view that decisions we make have to be in line with the doctrine of "the reasonable man". Open carry has not been judged to be unreasonable in some jurisdictions. I can only speak for me in that open carry presents a risk I do not choose to take. In the mid to late 1970's large state hospitals begin discharging people back into the community. Therefore larger numbers of disturbed untreated people are on the streets. An exposed firearm can be an invitation to either a suicidal or homocidal person to attempt a weapon take-away. The element of surprise offered by concealed carryhas absolutely been a factor in prevailing, based on the review of many after-incident reports.
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  8. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    St. Louis County, MO
    Posts
    3,445
    Training schools, like the one I attended at Mt. Sterling (MO) do not teach open carry and/or conceal carry. Conceal carry or open carry is varied here in Missouri -- there are places you can and cannot. In our area here, we can't open carry. It depends on the law of the county.

    I am sorry if my opinion here had already been discussed but being new here of a few hours, I do not have time to read all the responses yet. I just saw your question and clicked on it thinking I might be able to help clarify certain issues of conceal/open carry situation.
    "Don't let the door hit ya where the dawg shudda bit ya!"
    G'day and Glock
    GATEWAY SWIFT WING ST. LOUIS

  9. Quote Originally Posted by ClearSightTactical View Post
    So let me understand this correctly, you asked a loaded question to further your point...? Ok..

    If by merely carrying a firearm openly I'm provoking someone- no its not my responsibility...As for your scenario, that doesn't make any sense. Of course the dead kid isn't my responsibility. If I'm wearing a black suit & sunglasses and he confuses me for the FBI am I in your opinion morally responsible? To answer your smug Yea, I do..

    I have a question for you- what credentials you to label something a "good" or "bad" tactic ? Any real world experience beyond a firing range or keyboard?
    Good point. No, not a lot of real world experience compared to some of the other members. 6 years Army Reserves---infantry sergeant at time of discharge. Master's Degree from L.S.U.---29 years as a Licensed Mental Health Professional dealing primarily with the legally challenged and emergency services. NRA certified instructor. Registered with the LA State Police as a certified firearms instructor while living there. Moved to MT then worked two years as a Probation Officer for Missoula County in their Misdemeanor Program after completing training at MT Law Enforcement Academy. Currently licensed as a Certified Firearms Instructor in MT. But I have read the profiles of many members and agree that compared to them I do not have nearly their level of real-world experience.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by MONTANA View Post
    Good point. No, not a lot of real world experience compared to some of the other members. 6 years Army Reserves---infantry sergeant at time of discharge. Master's Degree from L.S.U.---29 years as a Licensed Mental Health Professional dealing primarily with the legally challenged and emergency services. NRA certified instructor. Registered with the LA State Police as a certified firearms instructor while living there. Moved to MT then worked two years as a Probation Officer for Missoula County in their Misdemeanor Program after completing training at MT Law Enforcement Academy. Currently licensed as a Certified Firearms Instructor in MT. But I have read the profiles of many members and agree that compared to them I do not have nearly their level of real-world experience.
    TOOOOOOT TOOT!
    Quick to the gun, Sure of your grip. Quick to the threat, sure of your shot. - Chris Costa

  11. #20
    In my opinion (and experience) CC is better for the tactical advantage. Chances are, if you are OCing and the bad guy comes in, your gonna be the first one he whacks. You won't be in the fighgt casue you're gonna get geased before you even know the fight is on. I can understand the "deterent" argument where you say the BG is gonna go somewhere else if he sees an armed citizen, but the fact is that most BGs don't think logically to begin with. If they did, they'd make a different career choice. I remember the incident of the crook who hijacked the plane demanding to go to South America, then he murdered the pilot. Now how was he going to get to S.A. with nobody to fly the plane?
    Maybe a casual crook would be detered, but a career ex-con, gangbanger won't give a rats ass to begin with if you're armed.

    Problem with the "deterent" arguement is that it assumes the BG is 1) Intelligent, 2) Not spaced out on drugs, or 3) just an unmotivated casual crook.
    In the beginning, the patriot is a scarce man -- brave, hated, and scorned. But when his cause succeeds, the timid join him. For then, it costs nothing to be a patriot. -- Mark Twain

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