Grooming and Manner of Dress for O.C. - Page 3
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Thread: Grooming and Manner of Dress for O.C.

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
    You dont get a chance to "disagree" with the fact that I think a certain way. Consider the worst case scenario regardless of OC carry laws on the books.

    Imagine a slum neighborhood that has had high rates of gang activity
    and shootings etc etc. Do you think the local populace/police are going
    to stand for roaming groups ( gangs of punks) roaming the streets
    carrying openly?
    Uh, it may take a lawsuit or two, cost a couple of cops (maybe even prosecutors) their performance evals for the year or even the job, but, "Yeah, I damned well expect them to "stand for it" unless they have valid RAS/PC to suspect unlawful behavior."

    You are welcome to think what you wish, just as each of us are, but your scenario simply won't wash in my state.
    Reality, DEAL with IT!

  2.   
  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    Uh, it may take a lawsuit or two, cost a couple of cops (maybe even prosecutors) their performance evals for the year or even the job, but, "Yeah, I damned well expect them to "stand for it" unless they have valid RAS/PC to suspect unlawful behavior."

    You are welcome to think what you wish, just as each of us are, but your scenario simply won't wash in my state.
    Ditto

  4. #23
    Profiling, stereotyping, or whatever you want to call it is a necessary evil that we all need to get over. We want the illegal aliens out of the country, the authoritites to find them and deport them but then we wan to tie thier hand on doing it. Profiling is fine as long as we are not being profiled. Wait a minute I am getting all mixed up here so I need to back up.

    Every one of us looks at other people and and makes a judgement about them based on our own personal experience and opinions. We cannot help that or stop doing that. But when we do we have to stop before we take any action and so should any LEO. You are going to get profiled every where you go with or without a gun on your side, hopefully no action will be taken from that. I have seen some pictures that people have proudly posted of themselves OC in different places and had to laugh out loud. Now if I were a LEO I probably would be in trouble if I saw them in public that I would not have tried to hassle them but could not have resisted making some comment. The problem is that if a LEO even makes a comment about some people while OC, whether good or bad, they are going to take it as a confrontation by LEO and wind up in a lawsuit or arrest.

    The comment about the girl with the two color hair, nose ring etc. is a primary example. She is going to get profiled and targeted by just her looks. Police are going to say something to her even if it is have a nice day. How she responds is going to be what follows. You can talk all you want to about a Free Country you want but I am stating facts and there is nothing going to change it. When the LEO says have a nice day to her she can respond with thank you and you also have one. Or she can respond with am I being detained. Either response is legal and her choice.

    I know this is an exaggeration but I hoe you can see where I am leading. Right or wrong our response is going to be a trigger on reaction, that is fact and I can't do anything about it and no amount of traning is going to wipe it out completely. Just some ramblings early in the morning.

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    Bottom line is this is supposed to be a free country: you go where you want, dress the way you want, speak the way you want, carry your personal weapon the way you want, all constitutionally protected rights. If an LEO, in passing, wants to say "Hi, how ya doin?", as might any other friendly civilian, no problem. Even if LEO is using the exchange to assess who I might be, etc, I still have no problem provided I'm free to respond in kind or not at all, and continue on my merry way.

    If however, he/she demands an extensive conversation, to see my papers, or search the bike, car, whatever, solely because of the way I'm dressed or how I carry my firearm, now we have a situation, called "probable cause". If I'm being detained, however briefly, then I am being deprived of my immediate freedom. We cannot accept this; IMO, this IS the "police state" we all rail against.

    I could be persuaded that the probability of being stopped/harassed by LEO increases as you look "less professional". But I only care from the viewpoint that this harasssment is un-Constitutional; I don't care to run home and change into attire more "acceptable" to the state's police.
    I understand your point, but even the Constitution can't legislate out of a human's psyche the impressions formed in the mind through EXPERIENCE. What the poster is trying to get you to see and understand is merely this:

    "If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...."

    I would even go as far to say that by copying the "gangsta" look in dress and swagger, which is incredibly stupid anyway, the person is giving off the impression that he is "one of them", and thus, from experience in arresting them before, the cop has " Probable Cause".

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOV5 View Post
    I understand your point, but even the Constitution can't legislate out of a human's psyche the impressions formed in the mind through EXPERIENCE. What the poster is trying to get you to see and understand is merely this:

    "If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...."

    I would even go as far to say that by copying the "gangsta" look in dress and swagger, which is incredibly stupid anyway, the person is giving off the impression that he is "one of them", and thus, from experience in arresting them before, the cop has " Probable Cause".
    If it walks like a gangsta, and looks like a gangsta, and talks like a gangsta.... it very well could be an upstanding citizen with a promising future who's just trying to blend into his 'ghetto' environment. It may be unlikely, but his rights are still his rights and should be respected. The police are a reactive force, and that's because when authority acts preemptively, rights get stomped on.

    Case in point, that fellow who recently lost his job, bought a few guns right after losing it, and those two factors alone were enough to compell authorities to raid his house, take posession of his property, and hold him without charges. He'd done nothing illegal and yet he was detained (even arrested, I believe) without charges.... his home was invaded and searched... his guns, that he'd owned prior AND the one's he'd just bought, were seized.... and he'd done nothing illegal. He'd not even made any threats to anyone. When the police chief or whoever was interviewed, he stated that they (police) were acting "preemptively", or "just in case" he MIGHT have been a danger. In other words, he was profiled according to his actions, however legal they were, and he and his rights were severely violated. This can't become the norm in our society.

    A gangsta look does NOT equal "probable cause". Would something turn up if a "gangsta-looking" person were investigated? More than likely, yes... BUT appearance in itself, in America, isn't grounds for investigation. We, the people, should be judged by our actions, not our outward appearances.
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by hopnpop View Post
    A gangsta look does NOT equal "probable cause". Would something turn up if a "gangsta-looking" person were investigated? More than likely, yes... BUT appearance in itself, in America, isn't grounds for investigation. We, the people, should be judged by our actions, not our outward appearances.
    And I will add to this that, were something to turn up on such a search, any charge would likely be thrown out because any evidence obtained during the search would likely be inadmissible.

    Also, let us remember that the duty of the police is not to prevent crime or even to stop it while it is taking place. Their duty is to react to the crime that has already taken place.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  8. #27
    With me it's more the attitude than the way someone dresses. Cause no problems, be civil, don't act the tough guy and I don't care how you're dressed.

  9. Alright I'll add my two pennies.

    I strongly agree with utimmer, JJ and 6shooter, quote from JJ: "I don't care to run home and change into attire more "acceptable" to the state's police"

    Yes, we all profile, but for me someone OCing would be profiled as good! The more people with tattoos and piercings OCing the better! The constant TV brainwashing that guns=bad could be changed by more people OCing. Just don't act like an idiot. Be professional, courteous and friendly, pink hair or not.

    I do not think the police should pull the 'papers, please' on someone with a nose ring and a .45. Go by their actions, not their appearance. Observe OK, detain not OK. Exceptions would be gang colors and ski masks. I don't think going to Wally World with a Glock and a ski mask would help our cause :)

    When I was a preacher, we found out after the service some bikers had showed up for church, on their Harleys and in full biker gear, and the greeters had turned them away! Someone behaving normally and legally should not be detained and forced to produce their papers; Americans pride themselves they have a free country - this is exactly the kind of thing that begins to erode that.

  10. #29
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    Profiling = being aware of your suroundings. No profiling means searching all 85+ year old granny types at the airport. Not that one granny can't take a plane down but you know what I mean. Just to prove they don't profile I think it is reasonable that if you come upon a crime scene where there is an Afro comb and a Jet Magazine with blood on them you should look for a bald white guy until all leads are exhausted. For my black friends here >>. Pay no attention to any spaghetti and meatballs at the crime scene, I had nothing to do with it!

  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CapGun View Post
    Just to prove they don't profile I think it is reasonable that if you come upon a crime scene where there is an Afro comb and a Jet Magazine with blood on them you should look for a bald white guy until all leads are exhausted.
    That isn't profiling, that is collecting and following evidence AFTER the crime has been committed.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

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