If I lawfully open carry can the police...? - Page 3
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Thread: If I lawfully open carry can the police...?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    It's illegal in all 50 states to drive a car on public highways without a driver's license. Is driving a car on a public highway reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed because the driver may or not be license? Yet the Supreme Court has ruled that it is against the 4th amendment for a police officer to stop an individual for the sole purpose of checking to see if they have a driver's license or not. So what's the difference in a license being required to carry a gun?

    If a police officer legally detains you while you are carrying a gun, they certainly can require you to show the required license for that gun. But there has to be a legal reason to detain you to begin with. Simply performing an action that is legal, with a license, is no indication of a crime being committed, and; therefore, no basis for a lawful detention - just as the simple act of driving a car on a public highway is no basis for a lawful detention.
    Well again I am only talking about TN.

    But it TN while a license is required to drive on the road, it is not illegal to drive in general. Unlike carrying a firearm is illegal in general.

    The act of driving is not illegal on its own, only driving without a license.
    The act of carrying a firearm is illegal, period, permit or not, openly or not. Having a permit is just a defense to that law.

    So that is the difference there.

    Or your kidnapping comparrison. Yes, kidnapping is illegal, but simply having kids close to you is not. Now if also just having kids about you was illegal, then a LEO would detain you to make sure they are yours.

    Don't get me wrong, in those states where open carry is legal without a permit, then I completely agree that simply openly carrying a firearm is not enough PC for a detention. Or in those 3 states were carry period is not illegal then any type of carry is not enough. It's just that it is not the same in every state.
    “Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away”

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  3. #22
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    Driver's license and CCP

    I keep seeing people comparing "Driving license" and "Conceal Carry Permit".
    The way I understand it, a driving license is a privlege and carrying a weapon for self defense is a "right". Now doing so openly is where the 2nd Amendment comes in. Carrying concealed is where the state comes in with licensing. Am I seeing something askew or am I correct in my analogies?
    The Iceman, Akron, Oh
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  4. #23
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    I realize this is a 'concealed carry' encounter, but I think it will illustrate a few things. I was recently in Jackson, TN. While getting coffee I dropped a lid and bent over to pick it up. As I did a Sheriff's deputy also getting coffee noticed a bulg in my clothing from the pistol grip. Yes, I know. It was a stupid thing to do, but I wasn't thinking. I should have kneeled down.

    Anyways I paid for my coffee and walked outside. The officer followed me. Outside he stopped me and asked me, "Are you carrying a gun?"

    Now, is carrying concealed in Tennessee without a permit a crime? Yes, so when the officer saw what 'from his experience' was a pistol grip poking through my shirt he had 'reasonable suspicion' to believe I was armed and might be committing a crime. He would have been within his authority to 'pat' me down for weapons. Though, he ultimately chose not to.

    "Yes, Officer I have a Missouri CCW permit," was my response. I produced the permit on his request. He read it. Handed it back, and we spent about 10 minutes talking guns before he went back inside for his coffee.

    If I'd have been 'lawfully' carrying a firearm openly he'd have had no reason to stop me at all. To conduct a 'Terry stop' would have required more information. An observed act which 'in his experience' suggested criminal activity. That act can be anything, but he must convince a judge that the observed activity could be reasonably construde as criminal activity.

    The two men stopped in Terry v Ohio were merely walking in front of a business (jewelry store if I remember correctly). But it was their repeated back and forth walk, looks into the store, and consultations at the end of the building that led him to believe they were casing the store for a robbery. When his 'pat-down' resulted in the discovery of several weapons unlawfully concealed they were arrested. The trial judge and later the US Supreme Court agreed that his suspicion was reasonable and the 'pat-down' was constitutional.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulIcemanMc View Post
    I keep seeing people comparing "Driving license" and "Conceal Carry Permit".
    The way I understand it, a driving license is a privlege and carrying a weapon for self defense is a "right". Now doing so openly is where the 2nd Amendment comes in. Carrying concealed is where the state comes in with licensing. Am I seeing something askew or am I correct in my analogies?

    You should be correct, but in many states the law either doesn't allow Open Carry without a permit or in some Open Carry at all.
    “Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away”

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyBear71 View Post
    If I'd have been 'lawfully' carrying a firearm openly he'd have had no reason to stop me at all. To conduct a 'Terry stop' would have required more information. An observed act which 'in his experience' suggested criminal activity. That act can be anything, but he must convince a judge that the observed activity could be reasonably construde as criminal activity.
    Why do you think if you had been openly carrying he wouldn't have had a reason to stop you? It is unlawful to open carry in TN without a permit.

    So if he sees you, or anyone, with a firearm, as far as he knows you are violating the law (commiting a criminal activity) until you can produce a permit.
    “Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away”

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  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallguy View Post
    Why do you think if you had been openly carrying he wouldn't have had a reason to stop you? It is unlawful to open carry in TN without a permit.

    So if he sees you, or anyone, with a firearm, as far as he knows you are violating the law (commiting a criminal activity) until you can produce a permit.
    My comment wasn't meant to be specific to Tennessee since I wasn't sure open carry was legal. Hence the 'lawfully' open carry statement. In my home state Missouri he wouldn't have cause in most of the state, although cities can restrict open carry.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyBear71 View Post
    My comment wasn't meant to be specific to Tennessee since I wasn't sure open carry was legal. Hence the 'lawfully' open carry statement. In my home state Missouri he wouldn't have cause in most of the state, although cities can restrict open carry.
    Ah ok...

    I guess one thing that is confusing me is the term "Lawful" open carry meaning Open Carry without a permit. Because in TN and some other states you can "lawfully" open carry....you just have to have a permit to do so.
    “Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away”

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  9. #28
    I don't know, it may be legal and all (it is here in NC) but OC is just asking for trouble IMHO. If police shows up they are pretty likely to ask to see some id and if you start arguing with them about that you may very well be right but arguing with police is ... well, things can go badly very quickly there. That's why I prefer to CC. Call me a coward if you like.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    I don't know, it may be legal and all (it is here in NC) but OC is just asking for trouble IMHO. If police shows up they are pretty likely to ask to see some id and if you start arguing with them about that you may very well be right but arguing with police is ... well, things can go badly very quickly there. That's why I prefer to CC. Call me a coward if you like.
    I think OC is legal in NC without a permit, but NC also has a law "Going armed in terror of the public" or something like that. I think that is what they charged the guy with that was too close to Obama's plane a while back. So there is that sort of "catch all" in NC.

    Anyway...I don't think you're necessarily a coward, just maybe non-confrontational like I tend to be. But if you're right, you're right. However I also agree arguing..at least loudly...usually won't go over well, but that doesn't mean you can't have a discussion. Just because the police say something, do something or ask you something or to do something doesn't mean it's legal or that you have to. If you choose to voluntarily comply...that is up to you, as long as it is your choice.

    But many OCers do suggest carrying some sort of recording device (know the laws of your state!! "Can We Tape?" ) in case something comes up later. That way it isn't a citizen said/officer said thing.
    “Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away”

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  11. #30
    I guess I don't see why some would want to refuse to show id just because they don't have to on principal grounds. From what I have read about people's encounters so far that's usually as far as it goes if the rest of the encounter goes well.

    In NC just being armed openly does not constitute "going armed to the terror of the public" but it is definetly a very very loose clause and if you get into an argument with the cops I suspect it could be used against you. Essentially the thing was worded so that in theory a wild eyed loony walking around with 8 rifles in his back and 2K rounds of ammo on him could be arrested before he gets a chance to ever fire a shot.

    I am nonconfrontational I figure that makes sense if I leave the house with a gun.

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