Attitude of Some Police re: Open Carry - Page 4
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Thread: Attitude of Some Police re: Open Carry

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    42
    I have to disagree with those of you who are advocating the idea of relinquishing your rights when the police begin to bully you.

    I cannot say how to react while in Washington, so I'm going to use Indiana law that I'm more familiar with to respond.

    In Indiana, we are not required to carry ID with us when we're out in public. If I'm not driving my car, I'm not required to have a driver's license. If I were confronted by a police officer about my OC'd sidearm, and asked for my ID, I can refuse. I am only required to provide my LTCH (license to carry a handgun) upon request. Standing in a business ordering a beverage does not give any PC (probable cause) or RAS (reasonable articulatable suspicion) for any further inquiry.

    Even for a Terry stop, there must be a suspicion of a crime or commission of a crime, or a reasonable danger. Carrying of a handgun has been ruled as not enough PC or RAS of a crime. There's also legal precedent thanks to the INSC and the Appellate court that provide even more protections (State v. Washington; Richardson v. State).

    I have never had this happen to me, so I can't say I have personal experience, but if a LEO attempted to bully me by whipping out the cuffs and offering me a free ride down to the station, he'd better have more than "he's OCing his gun" as a reason. And my refusal to show ID isn't enough. My LTCH is where it stops, not only because I won't show ID when I'm not required, but because I don't have to.

    IANAL, TINLA, YMMV.

  2.   
  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    How do you look foolish for standing up for your rights?
    Using "foolish" might not have been the best choice of words but I had no problem understanding the point Oldgrunt was making.

    I must say though, as of a few days ago, I was solidly in Oldgrunt's corner and the non-confrontational course he advocates was my approach as well. If a cop's request for an ID seemed reasonable, even if not technically required, I complied without complaint or further questioning. Until...

    Until...I received a lengthy, albeit very articulate, PM from one of our members arguing the other side of this question. Not one of those sharp-edge advocacy pieces I sometimes see here on the forum and even in this thread; but, a thoroughly persuasive one which resonated with me. Since I don't have the member's permission to quote him, I'll merely say that his core rationalization for advocating a more questioning approach revolved around ...'where would the [US] civil rights movement be today if Rosa Parks had quietly moved to the back of the bus?'

    Rosa Parks, of course, has been widely acclaimed as the "mother of the freedom movement" as a result of her 1 Dec '55 arrest in Montgomery, AL when she refused to obey bus driver James Blake's order that she give up her seat to make room for a white passenger.

    Now I'm not going to go so far as to get arrested and hauled off to jail but I have decided I'm going to pursue a more questioning attitude with any police officers I come in contact with, whether casually or because I've become a subject of their attention for some reason. And that's going to start with becoming as smart as I can on the nuances of our state's laws with regard to firearms possession and carry. Plus assuming more of an advocacy role and doing more to support those unjustly treated for standing up for the 2A.


    3X PM

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    washington state
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    817
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    That's interesting.... better look at your CPL, about 1/3 of the way down and make sure it says "State of Washington Concealed Pistol License"!
    Yes NavyLT I do have a Washington State concealed pistol licence and have had it many years. My point is in the small town where I live the police chief has given out false and misleading information regarding Washington State concealed pistol licences. This chief has admitted to my face that he doesnt think anybody here should carry a gun. I could go on but you must realize that in some small towns the police are a law unto themselves. Like you I refuse to let any leo violate my rights. I know what the law is regarding the aquisition of a CPL. I aquired my CPL through the sheriffs office as everyone else here does.

  5. #34

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    How do you look foolish for standing up for your rights?
    Kasper: Everyone should stand up for their rights and doing so does not make one foolish. Knowing when to not stop but go about the same thing in another direction is the key. I will stop short of being arrested or taking a bite out of a nightstick. This is when you use common sense and the law to your advantage. Showing my ID causes me little concern and I don't really see the need for flying up in the rear end about it. There is a lot of bluster on here about what some say they would do in a given situation when, in reality, they might actually do the opposite. You never know until the situation arises. One can only say what they think they would do. Whatever they want to do is fine for me. I wouldn't try to dictate to them the stance they should take nor will I let anyone dictate to me. I just do not see the need to always run around with a chip on my shoulder. I am comfortable the way I am and I am comfortable with others as they are. So, all that being said, have a good day and keep on packin'.

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington
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    475
    Quote Originally Posted by santa View Post
    Yes NavyLT I do have a Washington State concealed pistol licence and have had it many years. My point is in the small town where I live the police chief has given out false and misleading information regarding Washington State concealed pistol licences. This chief has admitted to my face that he doesnt think anybody here should carry a gun. I could go on but you must realize that in some small towns the police are a law unto themselves. Like you I refuse to let any leo violate my rights. I know what the law is regarding the aquisition of a CPL. I aquired my CPL through the sheriffs office as everyone else here does.
    What small town is this in? I want to make sure that I don't visit a small town with a police chief like that in it. I will make sure to avoid that small town.

    Also how does this police chief handle people from other parts of Washington that come to the town armed OCing or badly CCing their arms?

  7. #36
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    Nov 2010
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    SE FL and SE OH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeya View Post
    The individual should file a United States Code 1985 against the officer and charge the officer and any others who conspired under USC title 18 chapter 13, 241 & 242. This will stop this unlawful activity. I would give links but not familiar with this setup yet.
    241 and 242

  8. #37
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    Nov 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa View Post
    Yes NavyLT I do have a Washington State concealed pistol licence and have had it many years. My point is in the small town where I live the police chief has given out false and misleading information regarding Washington State concealed pistol licences. This chief has admitted to my face that he doesnt think anybody here should carry a gun. I could go on but you must realize that in some small towns the police are a law unto themselves. Like you I refuse to let any leo violate my rights. I know what the law is regarding the aquisition of a CPL. I aquired my CPL through the sheriffs office as everyone else here does.
    Is he elected or appointed? Either way it sounds like a bad apple that needs removed.

  9. If you aren't going to stand up for your rights just because an officer threatens to arrest you, than what is the point of standing up for your rights at all? Just do like the nice officer says right up front. No sense wasting time up until the point arrest is threatened.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. #39

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    If you aren't going to stand up for your rights just because an officer threatens to arrest you, than what is the point of standing up for your rights at all? Just do like the nice officer says right up front. No sense wasting time up until the point arrest is threatened.
    L.T.: I think we have beaten this dead horse long enough and we are at an impasse that I don't feel we can resolve. I respect your right to use whatever means you like to assert yourself to a LEO. You may be arrested for your stance and I will wave as you pass in the back seat of the cruiser. Without a doubt, you will emerge victorious in the end because the law will be on your side. My question is, "Why go to all that trouble just to prove a point?" My masculinity is not threatened by showing my ID to a LEO so, while you are taking your ride in the cruiser, I will be drinking coffee and BSing with my friends. Later, you will be knee deep in law suits against the municipality and police force and spending a lot of money (which you may or may not get back) to reinforce your rights. Hardly seems worth it to me but I would not deny you the right to do your thing! Happy trails.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    My question is, "Why go to all that trouble just to prove a point?" My masculinity is not threatened by showing my ID to a LEO so, while you are taking your ride in the cruiser, I will be drinking coffee and BSing with my friends.
    It's got nothing to do with masculinity. It's called the 4th amendment. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the US against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC.

    Some people just take that oath to greater length than others.

    In your case, you will have to prove that you were coerced into involuntarily showing your ID when not required to do so by law. You will say in court, the officer threatened to arrest me. The officer will say, no, I merely asked him to cooperate by showing me ID and he did so voluntarily.

    In my case, the officer will have to prove justification for an arrest.

    Which case do you think will be easier to win in court?

    Besides, you will never if the officer was bluffing unless you call his bluff. In my case, where it actually happened to me (threatened with citation), the officer was bluffing when I called it.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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