opinions on open carry - Page 11
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Thread: opinions on open carry

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    After reading through the thread, I'm going to have to side with lcdr. Here is why:

    1. A hardened target does not have to be armored. The term hardened is in reference to your presentation. A soldier with his rifle hanging to his side, with more of a relaxed posture is less hardened than a soldier with his hand on the grip in an attentive posture.

    2. The warship references didn't make sense to me. As citizens we are not at war. The somali pirates is a better example about society. Pirates would not even consider taking a vessel that had a guard. How often do you hear about a store next to a police station being robbed?

    3. No one can provide proof that open carriers have been targeted. I do not believe police are in the oc group because they have presented themselves differently with the uniform and badge.

    4. Where are these determined criminals? How long has it been since a professional team robbed a bank for large sums in the United States? Seems the only stories I have read deal with a single person going for a single register. I think the big bank robbery scenario is to close to hollywood. My view of a determined bad guy is one who does not plan to come out alive...in which case, it depends on the place being attacked, and it's luck whether or not your are the first victim.

    4. We train a lot to practice staying aware during high adrenaline situations. The simple criminal will have tunnel vision with the adrenaline rush they are having. Unless you were the first victim, they most likely wont see an open carrier 10 feet outside their determined route. (this one is my opinion)

    5. A lot of you who believe oc will make you a target base that off of what you would do if you were a bad guy. Problem is, the average bad guy is not very smart. We may be opinionated here, but most of us show some intelligence in our arguments.

    6. I have not found anything about ccw'rs surprising a bad guy. I have read about ccw'rs deterring an attack just by presenting their weapon. I have read about people stopping a crime by surprising the criminal from behind, in which case, form of carry didn't matter.

    7. The common criminal is looking for the easy target. Even the smallest amount of struggling or fighting back can deter a bad guy. They are counting on their victim to give up or freeze. They dont look for strong able bodies that can defend themselves. Deterrence is a great reason to oc.

    The only reason I dont like oc is because I feel uncomfortable around the general public. Sound like those who do oc dont have issues. I feel, the sponge society is soaking up all the left wing media garbage anti gun crap....out of sight out of mind works for me. Deterrence is great, but situational awareness is more important in my mind.
    I'll address some of your points:

    2. The ships were a metaphor. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was directed at a (alleged) naval officer.

    3. It's called common sense. Like I (and others) have pointed out, stats on who got targeted first aren't available. Also, you don't need to be shot at to be "targeted". You need only to be disarmed. In that case you've just put another gun on the street as well as losing the option fight back on even terms if necessary.

    4. Criminals who aren't deterred by armed targets operate every day. Armored cars, pawn shops, check cashing stores, jewelry stores, banks, etc. that have armed guards on the premesis get robbed every day. In Florida (where I live) it's very easy to buy a firearm for protection yet every day BGs rob bodegas, convenience stores, news stands, etc. even though they know there's a fairly high probability that the person behind the counter may very well have access to a gun.

    4(b). Note: You have two #4s in your post. Anyway, you're making the classic and often fatal mistake of underestimating your enemy. I don't need to go any further than that.

    5. Again, you are underestimating the opponent. I, on the other hand, prefer to look at worst-case scenarios.

    6. Really?? Seriously?? Again, this is where common sense comes into play.

    7. Agree for the most part but unfortunately that's not the case 100% of the time. Again, you're treating all BGs as the same and underestimating them. Not all BGs are intimidated by somebody with a gun. Many of them have grown up dodging bullets. For those people it's second nature, and if it's one of those types that you encounter....well let's just say that I believe the pistol on your hip just became a liability.

    I'm 47 yrs old. I have never once been in or around an armed robbery or the like. None of my family members have. None of my friends have. In other words, neither myself nor anyone I know has ever been in a situation where OCing would have deterred a crime. Not saying it'll never happen....just saying it's highly unlikely. On the other hand, If I do choose to OC, I'm convinced that the likelyhood of me encountering an agressive and/or ignorant LEO, a jittery citizen (who calls the LEO), or an ani-gun business owner (who calls the LEO or tells me to leave) is pretty good. I don't need the headaches involved in such an encounter, plus I prefer to retain the element of surprise.

    Like I said in an earlier post - it's called "camouflage" (or "stealth" if you prefer) and it has all sorts of offensive and defensive applications. I'm pro-OC. It's just not for me.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    P.S. As an aside.... why is it you OC adherents are so quick to jump up in defense of your chosen "methods"? A case of "the lady doth protest too much"? Guilt trip? Realization that not all self defense proponents see things your way?
    Those exact words could be used to describe "those Conceal Carry adherents".......


    Thing is, Being bashed by Conceal Carry advocates about open carrying is worse than being bashed by anti's for carrying at all........ At least anti's are truthful about not liking guns..... From my experience on this and other forums, the Conceal Carry ONLY people seem to have a hatred for those that dont carry "THE" way that "THEY" approve of..... not much more can be said to describe them...


    Being vilified by those who SHOULD have a big enough clue about our RIGHTS to at least acknowledge (like you have, ty) that we should all carry the way we, as individuals, want to.... will not be tolerated (IOW, I wont be silent about it)

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    I agree with your entire post. Now you know why I added a couple of names to my ignore list. I don't ignore everyone I disagree with, just a select few with whom it's pointless to offer a differing view (to say nothing of the obvious trolls who stalk these boards).
    Which is also why YOU are on so many people's ignore list, in fact, you are probably on more ignore lists than anyone else........

  5. #104
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    Yeah...it's like really hot in the middle of the US, then over here in North Idaho, it's all rainy and cool. Heh. Weather. Heh heh.

  6. #105
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    I will NOT be SILENT!!!!!!!!


    oops, was that out loud?

  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    The only thing we are quick to jump on is the presentation of unproven theories as fact. The statement, "A criminal is going to shoot you first in a robbery if you open carry" has NEVER happened in reality. It's that simple. Research and history both offer proof that the MAJORITY of criminals will not bother with a target that is known to be armed.

    I don't care if you base your choices on what-if scenarios in your head and/or unproven theories. But don't try to tell me those theories have any basis in reality, because they don't.
    If the MAJORITY of criminals defer to shows of deterrance, does it not logically come to follow that there WILL be an occasional one that will not? (Just sayin'.)

    My dear anal retentive Sir, I would not presume to tell you anything. I merely offer considerations for examination/discussion. If that is not your style, fine with me. But, conversely, don't expect me to take your "humble opinion" as Gospel either. ()

    GG
    Fanatics of any sort are dangerous! -GG-
    Which part of "... shall NOT be infringed..." confuses you?
    Well now, aren't WE a pair, Raggedy Man? (Thunderdome)

  8. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    Which is also why YOU are on so many people's ignore list, in fact, you are probably on more ignore lists than anyone else........
    NYAH NYAH NYAH! So there! ()

    (Really put YOU in your place, didn't he?)

    Confucious say: If birds of a feather flock too much together.... only generate boo-koo bird doo-doo.

    These truths I hold to be self evident.

    GG
    Fanatics of any sort are dangerous! -GG-
    Which part of "... shall NOT be infringed..." confuses you?
    Well now, aren't WE a pair, Raggedy Man? (Thunderdome)

  9. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by grognard gunny View Post
    nyah nyah nyah! So there! ()

    (really put you in your place, didn't he?)

    confucious say: If birds of a feather flock too much together.... Only generate boo-koo bird doo-doo.

    These truths i hold to be self evident.

    Gg


    tthhhbbbbtttttt

  10. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I absolutely agree. Most violent crime is successful because the criminal already executed their "element of surprise" and gained the upper hand from the very beginning of the attack.
    +1 on that NavyLCDR. (Hopefully in a few years you can change your user name to NavyCDR)

    Either someone needs to add the "pointless bickering" search tag to this discusion. Or we need to get back to the important topics of sheepdogs and CCW Badges.

  11. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall:215678

    I'll address some of your points:

    2. The ships were a metaphor. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. It was directed at a (alleged) naval officer.

    3. It's called common sense. Like I (and others) have pointed out, stats on who got targeted first aren't available. Also, you don't need to be shot at to be "targeted". You need only to be disarmed. In that case you've just put another gun on the street as well as losing the option fight back on even terms if necessary.

    4. Criminals who aren't deterred by armed targets operate every day. Armored cars, pawn shops, check cashing stores, jewelry stores, banks, etc. that have armed guards on the premesis get robbed every day. In Florida (where I live) it's very easy to buy a firearm for protection yet every day BGs rob bodegas, convenience stores, news stands, etc. even though they know there's a fairly high probability that the person behind the counter may very well have access to a gun.

    4(b). Note: You have two #4s in your post. Anyway, you're making the classic and often fatal mistake of underestimating your enemy. I don't need to go any further than that.

    5. Again, you are underestimating the opponent. I, on the other hand, prefer to look at worst-case scenarios.

    6. Really?? Seriously?? Again, this is where common sense comes into play.

    7. Agree for the most part but unfortunately that's not the case 100% of the time. Again, you're treating all BGs as the same and underestimating them. Not all BGs are intimidated by somebody with a gun. Many of them have grown up dodging bullets. For those people it's second nature, and if it's one of those types that you encounter....well let's just say that I believe the pistol on your hip just became a liability.

    I'm 47 yrs old. I have never once been in or around an armed robbery or the like. None of my family members have. None of my friends have. In other words, neither myself nor anyone I know has ever been in a situation where OCing would have deterred a crime. Not saying it'll never happen....just saying it's highly unlikely. On the other hand, If I do choose to OC, I'm convinced that the likelyhood of me encountering an agressive and/or ignorant LEO, a jittery citizen (who calls the LEO), or an ani-gun business owner (who calls the LEO or tells me to leave) is pretty good. I don't need the headaches involved in such an encounter, plus I prefer to retain the element of surprise.

    Like I said in an earlier post - it's called "camouflage" (or "stealth" if you prefer) and it has all sorts of offensive and defensive applications. I'm pro-OC. It's just not for me.
    You assume a lot about someone you dont know.

    2. Metaphor you brought up. Don't dismiss a point you made that hurts your logic.

    3. You used lcdr link to point out one case where an oc might have been targeted. That whole report was lop sided. One case does not make it common, therefore common sense says otherwise. Lefties say more guns in an area = more deaths, duh... common sense. Is this the common sense you are referring to?

    4. News stands and convenient stores are targeted because of the easy victims...because they don't think they are armed. Links to articles of armored cars, banks, and other stores being robbed that have armed guards would be helpful if you can find any.

    4b. I will know a threat when it presents itself. We have obvious differences in what we deem threatening based on our previous discussion on pitbulls. Though you say I underestimate, find me a convenient store robber who is intelligent. Good luck surprising the bad guy who already has the jump on you.

    5. Worst case scenario...bad guy stabs you in the head from behind...bad guy stabs your wife multiple times...bad guy shoots your kids from a blind side...you really prepare for the worst case?

    6. Really seriously since your common sense is a couple ticks above a liberal journalist...ill leave your illegitimate argument right there.

    7/conclusion: lumping these two together. Some, not many, criminals have encounter firearms before. They of all criminals know it's not worth risking it against an armed person. They can get an illegal gun with far less risk than trying to steal it from an armed person. You have dug a hole with no evidence, and buried yourself with no personal experience to back up your claims.

    I will halfway agree that open carry draws a certain group of bad guy, known as the police..

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