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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado / Colorado
    Posts
    246
    I also feel the need to share my story. I am still doing physical therapy on my right hand, several years after a knife attack almost removed my outer two fingers on my right hand. I was unarmed at the time- would I have liked to do something about it? Hell, yes!
    I also had a bullet miss my femoral artery on my left leg by 5/8 inch. I still won't wear shorts, even in summer or even in Hawai'i. It's a little on the ugly side and nobody wants to see it, and I try very hard to forget both of those days. Do I carry a gun nowadays? Hell yes! I take it to bed with me, I have it next to the shower with me, I have it in the kitchen...yeah, by now, you probably get the point. I do, however, like to give BG the element of surprise.
    Just tonight, an off-duty Denver cop got her sidearm stolen because BG saw her coming and got the jump on her.

    Always mystify, mislead and surprise the enemy if possible.
    Thomas J. Jackson

    Surprise is the greatest gift which life can grant us.
    Boris Pasternak


    We had avoided discovery by the Sioux scouts, and we were confident of giving them a complete surprise.
    Buffalo Bill


    Whoever can surprise well must conquer.
    John Paul Jones


    If you are ever injured, Sun Tzu would say:
    “If the mind is willing, the flesh could go on and on without many things.”
    ― Sun Tzu



    “A true leader always keeps an element of surprise up his sleeve, which others cannot grasp but which keeps his public excited and breathless.”

  2.   
  3. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    To all I offended, I apologize sincerely, however I have done research, and also know someone who got hassled. He was, in fact, hassled, however, I have been the one to get that "man with a gun" call before.
    Unfortunately, more than a few people, legally OCing have been hassled by local LEOs. Usually, it doesn't matter how big or small the town is. I live in Michigan, near the state capitol. I've OCed in Lansing and have never been approached by local LEOs there. I've also OCed in Leslie, a small town about 20 miles away, population of around 5000 people. TWO WEEKS after I OCed in that town, the local LEO showed up at my home and asked about what I'd been doing there. All I did was say that I have a CPL, and he said, "Ok, no problem and left." Apparently someone saw me OCing, and saw me get into my car. He was concerned because we can't OC in a vehicle, UNLESS we have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) which I have. What amazed me, after I said I have a CPL, he didn't ask to see it. I don't consider his actions, "hassling," he was simply following up on a call his department received.

    But if I had been hassled, it would not deter me from OCing every chance I get. Showing the anti-2A people that we have rights, and that we will exercise those rights, sometimes requires we put up with the bull **** that they try to discourage us with.

    Crap happens all the time. You simply have to decide if it's worth it for you, or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, next time, try to pick a thread that's not been dead for so long.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  4. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    I also feel the need to share my story. I am still doing physical therapy on my right hand, several years after a knife attack almost removed my outer two fingers on my right hand. I was unarmed at the time- would I have liked to do something about it? Hell, yes!
    I also had a bullet miss my femoral artery on my left leg by 5/8 inch. I still won't wear shorts, even in summer or even in Hawai'i. It's a little on the ugly side and nobody wants to see it, and I try very hard to forget both of those days. Do I carry a gun nowadays? Hell yes! I take it to bed with me, I have it next to the shower with me, I have it in the kitchen...yeah, by now, you probably get the point. I do, however, like to give BG the element of surprise.
    Just tonight, an off-duty Denver cop got her sidearm stolen because BG saw her coming and got the jump on her.
    I'm sure others will join me in saying, I hope you recover fully from your injuries. As for the cop, without knowing the full details, all I can say is, maintaining a high level of situational awareness is a must for anyone who carries a deadly weapon, whether it's carried concealed or openly. I try to maintain a high state of situaional awareness, all the time. It has saved me from many bad encounters and outcomes, more than once. And good SA is half the battle. In my personal opinion that is.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. #84
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Pasco, Washington, United States
    Posts
    6,271
    I hope you didn't think I was calling you a troll. I was just amused that such an old thread was brought back...did you happen to read through the other three big open carry threads?

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...pen-carry.html

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-strategy.html (good strategy)

    These threads have covered so much, I hope you find it a good read. Referring to your posts, I'll state my point of view that sums up the three links above.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    I don't know if anyone still reads this thread, BUT...I think open carry is a bad idea. Picture this: You go to a gas station late at night. You are inside when two guys come in to rob the place. One of them sees your gun. What do you think he's going to do? Who is he going to shoot first (especially if he thinks you're a cop)?
    While thinking it is a bad idea is your opinion, and you have every right to have it, I must say open carry is a good idea. I do not want to sound like I just want to argue, but I must defend my position to keep it from being overwhelmed with unwarranted negativity. Many open carriers believe concealed carrying is not as good, but we do not go into a conceal carry forum and state its bad, we wish the same respect from you.

    To answer your question, what do you think he's going to do? I think he is going to turn around and leave because he doesn't want to die, and he can wait 10 minutes till I leave or go down the street to the next gas station that he can rob easily.

    Who will they shoot first? It's a gamble, they might choose me, they might choose the clerk, or the other customer, there is no statistical evidence, and very few incidences of open carriers being targeted first. On the contrary, if someone begins to rob the place, do you think your concealed firearm will stop the threat? It all ready failed at stopping the threat from beginning in the first place...you look like a good victim to them, now you must draw a firearm from beneath clothing if your life is in danger. Do you think you can draw your firearm from underneath clothing faster than a bg can pull the trigger?

    Let me ask you this, if you wanted to rob a place, would you choose a store you saw someone carrying a firearm in? Would you choose a store that had a police officer inside it?

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    Here's another issue;
    If you go to Wal-Mart, Target, or ANY store, do you think that might attract unwanted attention? Will they call 911 and how are you going to get out of this one? More to the point, how many anti-gun people are going to call 911? In some cities, whether OC is legal or not, Law Enforcement will hassle you endlessly
    From my experience I have not attracted any unwanted attention, anywhere I have gone. If I do have someone call 911, how am I going to get out of this one? The same way I would get out of anything else I do legally, ask if I am being detained (and I will not be, because I am doing nothing illegal), and then say thank you and good bye, politely, and leave. If I am being detained I will remain silent and file a complaint and press charges depending on the severity that my rights have been infringed. How many more people will call? Well, considering I have had no one call, I expect zero more people to call 911. If I get hassled by LEO's, then LEO's are the problem. Training and re-education is the solution. Where I live, that has all ready happened a few years ago, and that is probably why I have not been hassled.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    To all I offended, I apologize sincerely.
    Most all internet forum members that survive in here have thick skin, so while I was not offended, I do not go into the concealed carry forums and post "concealed carry is a bad idea." You will offend and disrespect people with lines like that. I accept your apology, and I too am sorry if I have upset you or anyone, but I will stand by my mindset, just as you will stand by yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    The second time, it was at a street fair, and the guy was OC on public property. We decided that he was not a problem, but he was, in fact, on city-owned property. He locked his gun in his car and there was no problem...
    I do not know your laws, but here it is not illegal to carry on city property. I have no duty to put my gun away, but that was his decision to do so. My question to you is, if he was not a problem, why did you have him put his gun away? Because he was on city owned property? If that is illegal in your state, then ok. My experience will be different, considered it is not illegal for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    Now- that being said, if you are not a cop (and we CAN usually tell the difference), we worry about whether the person in question is a good guy or a bad guy- until there is a communication, we don't really know who he/she is. Keep in mind that we want to go home at the end of the shift, too.
    Now then, I am NOT anti-gun, not anti-OC, nor am I a 'troll', as you put it. I'm a regular guy who DOES read dozens of these threads (which is how I found this one). I'm also an instructor. I wish EVERYONE could OC and that we could all trust each other, however reality is a different situation...
    Remember, we are all on this planet together. I too want to go home safely and unmolested. We can not tell if the police officer coming up to us is a good guy or a bad guy either. You guys have the same responsibilities that we do in our own safety, respect us and we will respect you. As far as you not being anti-OC, it's hard to believe you when you posted "I think open carry is a bad idea." I want to believe you...just saying its hard. Being an instructor is fine, but that does not make you right by default. You enjoy reading, I hope you read the other three links above and enjoy those threads as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    OC is probably fine in a smaller town or something like that, but in a large city, we have a totally different situation. We have had issues in the past with people who were not nearly as upstanding as you all are.
    Once again, if I offended you, I am sorry. The thread was 'open carry opinions'- I was merely stating my opinion...
    I live in a medium sized city. 200,000 in the city limits, 250,000 in rural surroundings. I have no problems with open carry. The larger cities in my state have reputations of being rude to law abiding citizens...and since I live to far away to change that, I keep in touch with those that are fighting that battle everyday over there.

    I am glad you stated your opinion. I wish the misinformation and unsubstantiated claims would stop, but I never would want someone to not give their opinion. If no one posted their opinion, we would not be having these great debates that people can learn from, whether or not they side with you or me, its a great learning experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    I do, however, like to give BG the element of surprise.
    I agree, the bad guys are the ones that get the element of surprise. That is just the way it is. We do not get to choose the time our life is threatened, the time chooses us. As far as liking it, no i do not really like that only they get the element of surprise. I am glad good guys have learned, adapted, and trained in ways to overcome their surprise, and have been teaching it to other citizens so we can protect ourselves.

    Enjoy the read, I will wait for your reply.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. Quote Originally Posted by rdc2co View Post
    The second time, it was at a street fair, and the guy was OC on public property. We decided that he was not a problem, but he was, in fact, on city-owned property. He locked his gun in his car and there was no problem. However, there were hundreds of people at the fair and my job was to make sure that we didn't have any BGs in the park. It's pretty simple, really.
    Now- that being said, if you are not a cop (and we CAN usually tell the difference), we worry about whether the person in question is a good guy or a bad guy- until there is a communication, we don't really know who he/she is. Keep in mind that we want to go home at the end of the shift, too.
    So exactly what is your job? Security? Police Officer? Thank goodness in Washington state we have laws that protect citizens who choose to carry firearms for self protection. In Washington your actions, as you describe, would be against state law, possibly the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution, and the Washington State Constitution. If you threatened the person with arrest or detainment for either not choosing to interact with you or not removing their firearm, you would have committed a gross misdemeanor and would be subject to: " (2) Gross misdemeanor. Every person convicted of a gross misdemeanor defined in Title 9A RCW shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a maximum term fixed by the court of up to three hundred sixty-four days, or by a fine in an amount fixed by the court of not more than five thousand dollars, or by both such imprisonment and fine."

    In Washington State the citizens' rights to "go home at the end of the shift, too" are protected as much as (and, in fact, probably more than) a police officer's is.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  7. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado / Colorado
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    246
    Unfortunately, more than a few people, legally OCing have been hassled by local LEOs. Usually, it doesn't matter how big or small the town is.
    Very, very true, however a fact indeed. It's very sad. You're right- that should NOT happen. That's the age we live in, I guess. It is, in fact, sad, though.
    Then again, if all people could trust everyone straight across the board, we wouldn't need guns for self defense, and I'd be unemployed, as would everyone in the industry. That sounds perverted, but true.....

  8. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado / Colorado
    Posts
    246
    Let me ask you this, if you wanted to rob a place, would you choose a store you saw someone carrying a firearm in? Would you choose a store that had a police officer inside it?
    Very good point.
    "So exactly what is your job?"
    Law enforcement- here in CO, it's a position not many people know about, but here for 150+ years (1861).
    In Washington your actions, as you describe, would be against state law
    I wish all 50 states were that way, to a point, however it is not up to me to make those decisions. I just told someone today (at least once a week) "I don't make the laws. I only make them happen." We often discuss among ourselves that most of these laws COULD/SHOULD be much simpler. I think CCW/CHL/ (whatever other things they are called) should be like drivers license- recognized in all 50 states/cities/counties. Hopefully that will change soon (fingers crossed). And you are right- right now it's pretty stupid.
    Legal Resources
    "
    (c) Without legal authority, carries, brings, or has in such person's possession a firearm or any explosive, incendiary, or other dangerous device on the property of or within any building in which the chambers, galleries, or offices of the general assembly, or either house thereof, are located, or in which a legislative hearing or meeting is being or is to be conducted, or in which the official office of any member, officer, or employee of the general assembly is located." Most local ordnances include parks, state parks, libraries, schools (public or private), medical facilities, and a few other places (any place with metal detectors, security scanners, etc). It's tough for us to mess with, too. Is it right? not always...court rooms are a no-brainer. Schools (thanks to Columbine HS), churches (except mine- Pastor encourages it, and it's HIS property :)
    "The local ordinance concerning carrying a weapon in a private vehicle is not preempted since it can be harmonized with subsection (2)(b). Trinen v. City & County of Denver, 53 P.3d 754 (Colo. App. 2002)." Yes, this one's a pain in the *** for us, too. Denver's "Home Rule" somehow trumps state law??? (yeah, I know...What the **** is that all about?
    Michie's Legal Resources
    "(1) A person commits a class 6 felony if such person knowingly and unlawfully and without legal authority carries, brings, or has in such person's possession a deadly weapon as defined in section 18-1-901 (3) (e) in or on the real estate and all improvements erected thereon of any public or private elementary, middle, junior high, high, or vocational school or any public or private college, university, or seminary, except for the purpose of presenting an authorized public demonstration or exhibition pursuant to instruction in conjunction with an organized school or class, for the purpose of carrying out the necessary duties and functions of an employee of an educational institution that require the use of a deadly weapon, or for the purpose of participation in an authorized extracurricular activity or on an athletic team."
    "1) A person commits the crime of possession of a weapon by a previous offender if the person knowingly possesses, uses, or carries upon his or her person a firearm as described in section 18-1-901 (3) (h) or any other weapon that is subject to the provisions of this article subsequent to the person's conviction for a felony, or subsequent to the person's conviction for attempt or conspiracy to commit a felony, under Colorado or any other state's law or under federal law."
    This is actually a Federal law- state law cannot trump federal law- although marijuana is against Federal law (18 U.S.C. 922(g)), but somehow legal in Colorado. Yeah, 'what is that all about???' is right!
    Without going any more... you get the point. I assume you are pretty bored by now?
    Each state has ability to enact laws more restrictive than Federal law, and city/county ordinances can further restrict these. However, drivers licenses cannot be discriminated. Why not CCW/CHL/(etc).
    You all are correct in that sense- it would be easier for you, us, and the whole world if they (states/cities/counties) would make it all simpler and more standardized. But you know how ALL politicians are!
    Cheers!

  9. #88
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado / Colorado
    Posts
    246
    At least Florida had the common sense to print a plain-English (and Spanish) flier telling people what is legal or illegal (in plain English) for us plain English speakers. I wish every state had something like that. I've been bugging some people for years to do this, but it's like talking to a brick wall...

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