Poll - OC or CC - Page 12

View Poll Results: If both OC and CC is/were an option, which of the following best applies to you:

Voters
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  • OC all the time.

    6 4.92%
  • OC most of the time but CC on occasion.

    18 14.75%
  • CC all the time.

    44 36.07%
  • CC most of the time but OC on occasion

    54 44.26%
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Thread: Poll - OC or CC

  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    It occurs to me that "lack of proof" of OC'ers being "targeted first" is because there exist so few OC'ers.

    NC has been an OC state for a long time and I have lived in a semirural area for 12 years plus now and have YET to see an OC, except for those rare times I happen to see someone out hunting, and then only when I am WELL out into the boonies.

    So, fess up, OC'ers..... Just how often do you see other OC'ers in your day to day activities? (With the exception of "organized OC" events.)

    GG
    Because citizen X does not know the laws, they are unaware that such a thing is legal. Walk up to 10 random people in your town/state and ask them if carrying a firearm openly in public is legal. Maybe two out of the ten will know the laws. Most make the mistake of calling the local police department and asking them, and and told NO IT'S not legal.

    There are people who OC in my town everyday(local army surplus store owner) and others from out of state. I see them all the time in Vermont(No gun Laws at all )

    I do both and could careless if your OCing or CC, as long as you don't have a ND near me or my family. Now if your one of those dumb-asses who feels the need to play with their "concealed firearm" every ten minutes, or someone who pocket carries with crap in the same pocket as their firearm. Stay the hell away from me! Or forgets their LOADED FIREARM in a public restroom(Who the hell can forget their firearm?)stay the hell away from me!

    Why the hell would you remove your firearm while in the rest room? Just lower your pants and use the bathroom.

    Back to the topic at hand, if you educated those same eight people(remember two out of the ten are already informed.) Give it a few weeks and see how many of them would CHOOSE to use their right's under the law.

    Take a poll of how many people do not carry because they can not afford the training classes and the cost of the permit. IF those same people got informed they could still carry, only it would have to be openly, how many do you think would do so? All of them,I think not as some would not feel right about open carrying. But some of them would choose to do so. They would choose to do so for the same reasons they wanted to get a CWP.

    What if your state passed a law making CWP holders information (Name,address,phone numbers) available to citizens upon request. States now have CWP holder data bases open to the public, much like states sex offender registry's.

    Court: Concealed Weapons Holders to be Public

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

  2.   
  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    Everyone has their own level of "bashing one's own head into a wall" discovery. I just go with the flow and have LONG decided that I am NOT going to be the one to make the world change to my beliefs, or even to try to "explain" common knowledge to the brain dead.

    Like I said.... waste of time. I don't have much left to waste.

    GG
    Peacocks and sheepdogs are NOT brain dead! They just act like it sometimes.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    It occurs to me that "lack of proof" of OC'ers being "targeted first" is because there exist so few OC'ers.

    NC has been an OC state for a long time and I have lived in a semirural area for 12 years plus now and have YET to see an OC, except for those rare times I happen to see someone out hunting, and then only when I am WELL out into the boonies.

    So, fess up, OC'ers..... Just how often do you see other OC'ers in your day to day activities? (With the exception of "organized OC" events.)

    GG
    I already tried that route, Gunny. They keep asking for "proof" in the form of stats that they know don't exist because no such stats are kept. OCers make up such a miniscule segment of the population that it's highly unlikely that any formal study has ever been done.

    It's little more than a straw that a few sheepcocks (or should a cross between a sheepdog and a peacock be known as a "peadog"??) are clinging to.
    (Insert random tough-guy quote here)
    "See my gun?? Aren't you impressed?" - Anonymous sheepdog
    The hardware is the same, but the software is vastly different.

  5. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by B2Tall View Post
    I already tried that route, Gunny. They keep asking for "proof" in the form of stats that they know don't exist because no such stats are kept. OCers make up such a miniscule segment of the population that it's highly unlikely that any formal study has ever been done.

    It's little more than a straw that a few sheepcocks (or should a cross between a sheepdog and a peacock be known as a "peadog"??) are clinging to.
    I studied sociology and it's rather obvious to me at least, that conducting a study on the differences between CC and OC is just about impossible. Among all the questions of how to do this study a few simple ones would be: Where would you collect data? Each city is different in every way. Assume you chose a city, now how do you collect data? Do you visit restaurants and shopping malls and see how many people are open carrying, and then ask everyone else if they are concealed carrying? (Not to mention the errors you would create in your study by where you choose to sample versus where you dont sample). The CCs would also not even tell you they were concealed carrying and you could therefore not collect data from them in reality. And what do you ask them assuming they are willing to talk to you?
    In regards to the effects that OC and CC have on the public and criminals, how do you collect data on this? Do you attempt to ask your sample if they plan on committing crimes, and if so, what factors they will take into account? Well first of all there are too many factors to comprehend or even think of. Do you try asking people in prison if they are scared of open carriers while committing a crime? Well first of all, how do you define and describe this open carrier and the general situation and surroundings? And after you come up with a situation to ask them to hypothetically give you an answer on, you cant generalize that situation to all the other different situations at any given place and at any given time. If you sample a prison population, you are also creating a bias because you are only sampling people who have been caught and convicted. You also cannot forget about the effects that emotions, drugs, and natural biological functions have on our decision making. I could sit here all day and think of the countless problems in the study, and even when you think you have a study that could work, there will be plenty of ways to criticize it and the chance of making it able to be generalized to the real world would be zero.
    Complex human behavior is just what it is, complex.
    There is an endless list of difficulties in a sociological study as complex as this, hence the reason why there has not been a study done on this. It is extremely unrealistic to attempt to study, and after all, you're trying to study human behavior, and that is a difficult subject in itself. There are too many factors.
    There is no hard evidence that proves CC is better, or that OC is better. There are only examples in the news that can be interpreted (not to mention biased) that make us think one may be better than another.
    Last edited by Deserteagle; 09-03-2011 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Spelling

  6. I don't know.... seems pretty easy to ask a con in jail, "Would you attack someone if you knew they had a gun." There is more reason for the criminal to lie and say they would. There is no reason for them to lie and say they wouldn't. Yet the majority of them said that they would not attack someone they knew to be armed.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  7. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I don't know.... seems pretty easy to ask a con in jail, "Would you attack someone if you knew they had a gun." There is more reason for the criminal to lie and say they would. There is no reason for them to lie and say they wouldn't. Yet the majority of them said that they would not attack someone they knew to be armed.
    So you ask a "con in jail"... In reality, their answer is not generalizable to the rest of the population of criminals and would be criminals. You are also only getting an answer from one or a few convicted criminals who are willing to talk to you and who you assume are telling the truth. What about all the other criminals in the population? Do you really think that one will reliably represent the rest of the criminal population? Do you really think all criminals have the same mindset and this this con's answer will apply to everyone else in the real world? What about people with clean records who later decide to commit a crime? Are you going to generalize that con's answer to this person with the clean record about to commit a crime? Also, how do you account for all the other factors in committing a crime when trying to get an answer from the con? A lot of criminals will want to know more about the situation in which you are talking about in which they encounter a person with a gun. Too many problems with this idea.

  8. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by S&WM&P40 View Post
    Because citizen X does not know the laws, they are unaware that such a thing is legal. Walk up to 10 random people in your town/state and ask them if carrying a firearm openly in public is legal. Maybe two out of the ten will know the laws. Most make the mistake of calling the local police department and asking them, and and told NO IT'S not legal.

    There are people who OC in my town everyday(local army surplus store owner) and others from out of state. I see them all the time in Vermont(No gun Laws at all )

    I do both and could careless if your OCing or CC, as long as you don't have a ND near me or my family. Now if your one of those dumb-asses who feels the need to play with their "concealed firearm" every ten minutes, or someone who pocket carries with crap in the same pocket as their firearm. Stay the hell away from me! Or forgets their LOADED FIREARM in a public restroom(Who the hell can forget their firearm?)stay the hell away from me!

    Why the hell would you remove your firearm while in the rest room? Just lower your pants and use the bathroom.

    Back to the topic at hand, if you educated those same eight people(remember two out of the ten are already informed.) Give it a few weeks and see how many of them would CHOOSE to use their right's under the law.

    Take a poll of how many people do not carry because they can not afford the training classes and the cost of the permit. IF those same people got informed they could still carry, only it would have to be openly, how many do you think would do so? All of them,I think not as some would not feel right about open carrying. But some of them would choose to do so. They would choose to do so for the same reasons they wanted to get a CWP.

    What if your state passed a law making CWP holders information (Name,address,phone numbers) available to citizens upon request. States now have CWP holder data bases open to the public, much like states sex offender registry's.

    Court: Concealed Weapons Holders to be Public
    Which did NOT quantitatively answer my question. I can summarize this under "expected answer" "1" AND "2", then?

    GG
    Fanatics of any sort are dangerous! -GG-
    Which part of "... shall NOT be infringed..." confuses you?
    Well now, aren't WE a pair, Raggedy Man? (Thunderdome)

  9. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I don't know.... seems pretty easy to ask a con in jail, "Would you attack someone if you knew they had a gun." There is more reason for the criminal to lie and say they would. There is no reason for them to lie and say they wouldn't. Yet the majority of them said that they would not attack someone they knew to be armed.
    Well, actually, there IS! When ANYTHING that might point to being uncooperative with "researchers" rears it's ugly head.... let's just say I would not be prone to utter anything that might affect my "file" (and parole board chances).

    So you contend that the BG is supposed to "break bad" and say that guns don't scare him? That might work in his "gang circles", but in the setting of the "Big House" will only get him a notation of being anywhere from incorrigible to sociopathic. Does NOT look good in his "file".

    It's kind of like the perceptive college student who realizes quite early that the best grades are given to those who openly "agree" with the Prof's pet theories, regardless of actual, silently held, beliefs. (Had to use the technique once or twice myself to keep my academic scholarship.)

    Regardless of senario, one "plays the game" to keep ahead of the ball game. Prison is just like any other.

    Altruism is as dead as a door nail. (Alas!)

    GG
    Fanatics of any sort are dangerous! -GG-
    Which part of "... shall NOT be infringed..." confuses you?
    Well now, aren't WE a pair, Raggedy Man? (Thunderdome)

  10. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny:226297
    It occurs to me that "lack of proof" of OC'ers being "targeted first" is because there exist so few OC'ers.

    NC has been an OC state for a long time and I have lived in a semirural area for 12 years plus now and have YET to see an OC, except for those rare times I happen to see someone out hunting, and then only when I am WELL out into the boonies.

    So, fess up, OC'ers..... Just how often do you see other OC'ers in your day to day activities? (With the exception of "organized OC" events.)

    GG
    Good point gunny. I don't see many. Today I saw 6 when we got together to clean up a local shooting spot. Not the normal day.

    It can be said you don't see criminals everyday either. They are still out there though.

  11. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullasn:226285
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    Please provide one example in reality that it paints a big fat target on them? I don't think the majority of the people on this forum carry to look cool, including the open carriers. Good attention is good attention. No attention is fine until people forget what is their rights, fine until guns are thought of as evil, fine until we can no longer carry in any form. I guess no attention is bad attention then.
    To answer your question, as a few people already have on this tread. I am going to just cite the Store Clerk encounter where the store was robbed in the past and where people were killed in that incident. On that particular person's day of grocery shopping. A LEO was called. Everyone by you notice that the LEO wanted to talk to you and of course they knew why. You were carrying a gun. Now you're the big fat target. Was that satisfactory?

    I will admit though, I personally have not dealt with it. Take it how it is, you're not going to change my mind. I am just not interested in dealing with the ill informed, being hassled by an LEO just to check if my permit is up to date, dealing with the debate on who is right and who is wrong during my day to day life, etc... That is why we have this forum

    I am not going to bite your neck off because you chose to OC to deter criminals or to make a statement. That is your preference. If you're just interested pushing your agenda, I wish you good luck. You're fighting a battle vs. the mainstream media. Where in the movies, guns are used as an enforcer, to kill, to create intimidation, to look "cool", my gun is bigger than yours mentality, etc... That is what guns are by design. And in the news, you do not often hear praise for Firefigtherchen OCing, what a good guy. But more often you hear about murders by a guns, school shootings, someone reporting a gun on school grounds, so on and so on.

    Don't let that deter you but MY believe as an individual, it is hard to make a difference, but as a team or "mob", people notice. I'm up for some OC BBQs!


    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    It is extreme, so extreme actually, its unrealistic. Why would they risk killing themselves over a gun they could purchase for a few hundred dollars illegally elsewhere? Why would you want to hide your means of defense under a piece of clothing that will only get in the way when this crazy person goes straight for cold blooded murder? Will you have enough time to draw before he immediately kills you?

    Btw, i'm not biting at your neck like some other posters believe because they can't back up their decisions, these are question we ask all those that feel the way you do. And to this day, they still have not been able to give any hard evidence.

    If anyone wanted your gun bad enough, they will take it from you and you would not know what was coming. No need to spend a few hundred dollars when they could take it away from you for free. So why advertise it in the first place? It is not worth MY risk.

    To answer your next question, if a crazy person is going to immediately kill me, I would say no because of the element of surprise. Now, I am going to ask you the same question, will you have enough time to draw while OCing when someone is going immediately kill you?

    Nothing is faster than having the gun already in your hand. But of course, have a good time defending yourself in court. Even if you believe you were right, your peers (jury) might not think so.

    If you are only interested in hard evidence, you're asking the wrong person. My belief is that you do not need hard evidence to think rationally.

    If you want to talk rationally, I'm up for it. Maybe we can throw some beers back while we're at it. But if you're just looking for hard evidence to make a point, it was nice talking to you.
    I didn't realize you meant big fat target was being targeted by police. They do target law abiding citizens quite a lot, and if you decide you don't want to be the one too fight against it, that is completely fine, I can understand that.

    I'm not trying to push an agenda, never have. I enjoy knowing people carry openly and concealed. I just wonder how they came to the conclusion for their decisions...

    They wouldn't be getting my gun for free, they would be risking their life for it. Their life is worth a lot more than a few hundred dollars to them. Its not worth their risk to try and take my gun away from me.

    I don't believe anyone will draw fast enough for those that will immediately harm you by surprise. So neither carry method will stop that attack. I too carry hoping drawing my weapon is the last option I have. I think the minute risk if it being taken from me is overshadowed by the amount of criminals it will deter.

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