Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy - Page 35
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Thread: Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy

  1. #341
    It should not matter how you carry. As long as you carry!

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  3. #342
    Uniformed Cops carry openly because they are the first line of defense in community policing. "Officer Presence" is the first stage of the "Use of Force Continum" Nearly all uniformed cops also carry intermediate weapons (e.g. collapsable steel batons, OC spray and tasers). They also carry openly using Level II or Level III holsters and have many hours of training in weapons retention. I have watched survellance tapes of prison inmates practicing disarming techniques on each other. There are some really evil people walking the streets and they aren't afraid of the police let alone a "civilian" that is carrying.

    Not all cops carry openly and many agencies require that detectives and plainclothes officers carry concealed or at least discreetly. When a non-uniformed officer or agent carries openly they always have their badge visible as well as a set of handcuffs available. I agree with ONLYPILL, from a tactical standpoint open carry isn't a good choice. If I'm in an establishment and an armed robbery or shooting goes down I don't want the bad guys to know I'm carrying. I want that element of surprise. I want to access the situation and make certain I know who all the threats are. Things aren't always as they appear. On December 31, 2011 a retired NYPD officer shot and killed an off duty federal agent who was intervening with the armed robbery of a pharmacy. A friend of mine attended that agents funeral. That tragedy is a perfect example of "Know your target and it's surroundings" when you are in a tactical situation where deadly force may be justified.

    If open carry is legal in your jurisdiction more power to you, but in my opinion open carry using anything less secure than a Level II holster is simply irresponsible. I am a great proponent of law abiding citizens becoming proficient and skilled in the use of firearms and a Lifetime Member of the NRA. However, I don't recommend most people open carry because it's simply not a deterrent to a thug that might seek to do you harm. It has been statistically proven that many gang bangers have been in more deadly force encounters than many cops and they often shoot more proficently under fire. To underestimate the skill or willingness of the criminal to use their firearm is an error that could prove deadly to a cop or a civilian.
    National Rifle Association
    Single Action Shooting Society

  4. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishcopper View Post
    Not all cops carry openly and many agencies require that detectives and plainclothes officers carry concealed or at least discreetly. When a non-uniformed officer or agent carries openly they always have their badge visible as well as a set of handcuffs available. I agree with ONLYPILL, from a tactical standpoint open carry isn't a good choice. If I'm in an establishment and an armed robbery or shooting goes down I don't want the bad guys to know I'm carrying. I want that element of surprise. I want to access the situation and make certain I know who all the threats are. Things aren't always as they appear. On December 31, 2011 a retired NYPD officer shot and killed an off duty federal agent who was intervening with the armed robbery of a pharmacy. A friend of mine attended that agents funeral. That tragedy is a perfect example of "Know your target and it's surroundings" when you are in a tactical situation where deadly force may be justified.
    You do realize you are agreeing with a troll that hasn't come back right? That's besides the point...

    Undercover officers do wear their firearms concealed a lot. But it seems the reasoning has slipped by you. To me, they do this to fit in, so they don't stop the crime before it happens! They need to look like a criminal, or they need to look like the crowd, so that the crime can happen, so they can make the arrest. Why would I want that? I do not want that to happen around me. I do not want the crime to happen in the first place. Why would I conceal my handgun so they decide to commit the crime? Who is playing police now?

    I don't know if you heard, but open carry will also get that "surprise" in an establishment because bad guys that just barge into a location without first observing do not know who is or who is not carrying, open or concealed. Those that do observe first, do not pick those locations the vast majority of the time. And even still, there have been very few cases of open carriers being in any situation, and those that have weren't picked first. Just because we open carry doesn't mean we shoot at anything that moves. We get to do the same as you, we get to observe, find the threats, and draw appropriately and faster.(BTW those are hyperlinks to actual stories)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishcopper View Post
    If open carry is legal in your jurisdiction more power to you, but in my opinion open carry using anything less secure than a Level II holster is simply irresponsible. I am a great proponent of law abiding citizens becoming proficient and skilled in the use of firearms and a Lifetime Member of the NRA. However, I don't recommend most people open carry because it's simply not a deterrent to a thug that might seek to do you harm. It has been statistically proven that many gang bangers have been in more deadly force encounters than many cops and they often shoot more proficently under fire. To underestimate the skill or willingness of the criminal to use their firearm is an error that could prove deadly to a cop or a civilian.
    1. You need to reference the statistics.

    2. How often were these gang bangers shooting it out with civilians and not police or other gang bangers?

    As to what retention you want to carry with, that's personal preference. I say this because the majority of gun grabs have been after the gun was drawn.

    As another member posted, hardened criminals didn't get hardened by making stupid decisions, like attacking a stranger with a gun. Again, referring to the first hyperlink, it is a deterrent to the majority of criminals. If anyone is underestimating the willingness of a criminal to use their weapons, it would be a concealed carrier who thinks they aren't going to get shot because they looked unarmed. Like you said, the few career criminals that have more experience, and are proficient with their weapons, are the dangerous ones to EVERYONE. During a armed robbery/mugging (not at an establishment, but towards you personally), what makes you think you can draw from concealment before someone, who is so proficient, can pull the trigger that is all ready aimed at you?
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #344
    Exactly. Cops open carry for the same reason the ordinary citizen does. It's more comfortable and the weapon is easier to get to. Yes, there is an advantage in the "element of surprise" argument, but the main benefit of concealed carry is that it helps the people who are NOT armed.

    Everyone who opposes OC seems to ALWAYS bring up this argument, i.e. that you're a target. And yes, that makes logical sense. Yet, in reading a small library of gun literature, I've never come across any stats or even anecdotal evidence of this phenomenon.

    This is NOT combat. Criminals are NOT enemy soldiers. They are imbecile thugs. They see a gun, they move to something easier--whether it's another convenience store or other mugging victim. Saying OC is a bad strategy is like saying using the Club is more likely to get your car stolen.

  6. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peconic_Paladin:275278
    Exactly. Cops open carry for the same reason the ordinary citizen does. It's more comfortable and the weapon is easier to get to. Yes, there is an advantage in the "element of surprise" argument, but the main benefit of concealed carry is that it helps the people who are NOT armed.

    Everyone who opposes OC seems to ALWAYS bring up this argument, i.e. that you're a target. And yes, that makes logical sense. Yet, in reading a small library of gun literature, I've never come across any stats or even anecdotal evidence of this phenomenon.

    This is NOT combat. Criminals are NOT enemy soldiers. They are imbecile thugs. They see a gun, they move to something easier--whether it's another convenience store or other mugging victim. Saying OC is a bad strategy is like saying using the Club is more likely to get your car stolen.
    It doesn't make logical sense , as you stated they aren't enemy soldiers, they are imbecile (weak) thugs, so its logical they will move on., and its logical that open carry works.

    I like your club analogy...but it has been asked before, do guards make an establishment more susceptible to crime, the OC haters believe it does. So yes, they will think the club makes it more likely your car will get stolen, and ADT security signs in your front yard makes your house more likely to get robbed. Illogical yes.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  7. #346
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    This is NOT combat. Criminals are NOT enemy soldiers. They are imbecile thugs. They see a gun, they move to something easier--whether it's another convenience store or other mugging victim.
    Not all criminals are imbecile thugs. Some are very calculated, cunning and smart. They just have a twisted head. We should never be so ignorant as to classify criminals as "this" or "that."

    This is not a statement that OC is better or worse than CC. Both have merit and one should do what s/he feels is personally best.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #347
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    I will not open carry!


    Because its illegal in Florida lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #348
    I didn't once mention undercover officers. There is a significant difference between detectives, plainclothes officers and their UC counterparts. For the record genuine undercover officers don't even carry their credentials let alone handcuffs. I'm not going to argue with you. I have thirty years of military and law enforcement experience. I'm certified to teach firearms, officer survival and defensive tactics to LEO's and civilians. I've worked on the streets of some of America's most dangerous cities as well as on the southern border. Gun grabs occur because of a lack of training, hestitating to shoot and most frequently a lack situational awareness.

    You believe what you want. If your don't think criminals look out for who is armed when they are casing a place to commit a crime you are kidding yourself. Gang bangers aren't Rhode scholars but they aren't all stupid as you imply. Quite the contrary, most have more street savvy than many civlians or cops. You answered your own question. It's tough to outdraw someone who is already drawn down on you. If you are going to draw from your holster it really doesn't matter if you are concealed or not. I'll bet my next paycheck I could randomly select a couple of officers from our office break room that could draw quicker, break leather and neutralize a threat from a concealed posture than you could from open carry. That is only because they have been trained well to do so.

    You carry openly if you think it makes your safer if that is your perogative in your jurisdication. All I recommended was that you use a Level II holster. My colleagues and I will keep our weapons concealed and have them ready when the chips are down.
    National Rifle Association
    Single Action Shooting Society

  10. #349
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    Die thread die......

  11. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Not all criminals are imbecile thugs. Some are very calculated, cunning and smart. They just have a twisted head. We should never be so ignorant as to classify criminals as "this" or "that."
    Exactly. Assuming all criminals are just thugs who get scared at the sight of a holstered gun is a bad idea. Dont forget about the thugs who have probably stared down the barrel of a gun more than any of us have. Remember the "unibomber"? He was a criminal and murderer, and was a college professor. Smart person, just messed up.

    I've had to read several autobiographies of gang bangers throughout my education and it is rather interesting to see how unafraid they really are. They have countless stories of being confronted with guns. But what is surprising is that many of these thugs ran after the guy with the gun. They didnt run away from the gun. Humans are very unpredictable to say the least.

    Open carry will scare away some, and it will not scare away some. Nothing about human behavior is definite. The only things we know for sure in life is that we will die and that we will be taxed.

    P.S. This is not for or against open carry.

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