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Thread: Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy

  1. #351
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    Let me see...

    "Element of surprise"...

    Concealed carrier pulls a gun and "surprises" the bad guy that is already attacking and has already put the CC'er in dire danger ..... requiring the CC'er to respond, perhaps with deadly force, because the attack is already in progress.

    Open carrier has his gun in plain sight and when the bad guy is scoping the OC'er out as a victim the bad guy is "surprised" to see his would be victim has a gun and decides to choose someone else that looks like they don't have a gun... Perhaps a CC'er who is about to discover what "the element of surprise" really is when he is "surprised" to discover he has no choice but to draw....

    In the meantime the open carrier wasn't attacked, didn't need to draw his gun, didn't have to use deadly force (the sight of an openly carried gun was already "force other than deadly force used to stop the crime before it even began), didn't have to deal with the police or subsequent attorneys/court cases.. in fact, because the crime never happened the open carrier just... went home.

    So someone please tell me what is so special about the concealed "element of surprise"?

    Now about how open carry won't deter the determined criminal... exactly how is concealed carry going to deter him? Please do tell.
    ----------
    And here is the kicker.....

    I have a very simple question for the CC'ers who are so adamantly against OC..........

    If a CC'er pulls his gun out from hiding and when the criminal sees it he decides to stop attacking and no shots are fired... what stopped the attack?"

    I'll answer it for you.

    The sight of the gun stopped the attack.

    Here is another question......

    So if the sight of a gun that was pulled out of CC hiding stops an attack already in progress exactly why wouldn't the OC'd gun in plain sight stop an attack before it even starts?

    Anyone care to answer that question?

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  3. #352
    Because there are feral sub-humans that would see you packing your openly carried holstered weapon and shoot you on general principal. Open carry in the 21st Century is not a deterrent to violent criminals. A better option is to remain concealed and let he A$$40L#s wonder who is carrying. Keep them guessing! Make them wonder "I wonder if that guy is packing and will shoot me!" I hate to break this news to you, after many years on the streets I have learned that reality is not a "Dirty Harry" movie.
    National Rifle Association
    Single Action Shooting Society

  4. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishcopper View Post
    Because there are feral sub-humans that would see you packing your openly carried holstered weapon and shoot you on general principal. Open carry in the 21st Century is not a deterrent to violent criminals. A better option is to remain concealed and let he A$$40L#s wonder who is carrying. Keep them guessing! Make them wonder "I wonder if that guy is packing and will shoot me!" I hate to break this news to you, after many years on the streets I have learned that reality is not a "Dirty Harry" movie.
    What... more "OC'ers will be shot first" crap? Do you have researchable cases with cites/links where a criminal saw an openly carried holstered weapon and shot the carrier on general principal has happened in a large enough number to actually be a statistical concern? Please bear in mind that OC has been happening in Arizona for... ummm.. decades. So surely there is a plethora of instances where the OC'er was shot on general principle.. or just shot first.. or his gun was grabbed... or violent criminals targeted the OCer for his gun. And surely you can provide proof of those instances?

    So you are saying that open carry in the 21st Century is not a deterrent to violent criminals where OC with a gun in plain sight with no question the would be victim is armed and will likely shoot the criminal won't deter a determined criminal..... but CC, because it makes the bad guy wonder if someone is packing or not... and as you said..."Keep them guessing!" as to whether the criminal might get shot or not, will?

    Guffaw!!!!!!

    And you are right... I agree completely.. real life is not a Dirty Harry movie... but real life also is NOT the controlled circumstances found on the range or during a training exercise.

  5. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Let me see...

    "Element of surprise"...

    Concealed carrier pulls a gun and "surprises" the bad guy that is already attacking and has already put the CC'er in dire danger ..... requiring the CC'er to respond, perhaps with deadly force, because the attack is already in progress.

    Open carrier has his gun in plain sight and when the bad guy is scoping the OC'er out as a victim the bad guy is "surprised" to see his would be victim has a gun and decides to choose someone else that looks like they don't have a gun... Perhaps a CC'er who is about to discover what "the element of surprise" really is when he is "surprised" to discover he has no choice but to draw....

    In the meantime the open carrier wasn't attacked, didn't need to draw his gun, didn't have to use deadly force (the sight of an openly carried gun was already "force other than deadly force used to stop the crime before it even began), didn't have to deal with the police or subsequent attorneys/court cases.. in fact, because the crime never happened the open carrier just... went home.

    So someone please tell me what is so special about the concealed "element of surprise"?

    Now about how open carry won't deter the determined criminal... exactly how is concealed carry going to deter him? Please do tell.
    ----------
    And here is the kicker.....

    I have a very simple question for the CC'ers who are so adamantly against OC..........

    If a CC'er pulls his gun out from hiding and when the criminal sees it he decides to stop attacking and no shots are fired... what stopped the attack?"

    I'll answer it for you.

    The sight of the gun stopped the attack.

    Here is another question......

    So if the sight of a gun that was pulled out of CC hiding stops an attack already in progress exactly why wouldn't the OC'd gun in plain sight stop an attack before it even starts?

    Anyone care to answer that question?
    It's not so rudimentary. I understand your logic. But you need to understand more about the element of surprise. Although most frequently used in the context of similar "what-if" scenarios, the element of surpise is really nothing like that. There is much more. Given the scenario you describe the mere fact that someone is CCing and pulls is a very small part of what comprises the tactic in reality. I teach a class that ingrains in the student ways of breaking the OODA loop of the perp. In any violent personal conflict this is a very important piece of knoweldge to posses.

    In most criminal attacks the perp has undergone a series of mental processes before the attack commences. He has OBSERVED the environment and persons involved. He has ORIENTED himself to the situation, environment and has developed his plan of attack. He has made the DECISION to attack. And then comes the ACT/ATTACK.

    The attack may occur in an unlimited number of unpredicable approaches/methods. This is why we can train defensive skills into our students but we can never prepare them for exactly how the attack will unfold. This is precisely why "what-if" scenarious on the web are laughable. Few can predict the behavior of either the perp, the victim or the surrounding environment (that changes too). Sh-t changes fast. Yet we must remember both the perp and victim are suffering similar psychological and physiological aspects of a life and death encounter.

    As we know its nearly impossible to outdraw a drawn gun. But there are methods of disrupting the OODA loop that provide a fractional amount of time to react. Gunfights are won and lost in fractional time scales. Those who believe that CC provides an absolute element of surprise are mistaken. Such techniques REQUIRE an understanding of the psychology of disruption of the OODA loop. Explaining them would be akin to presenting a "what-if" scenario... a no-no in my book. But the principal objective is to cause the perp to have to re-observe, re-orient, re-decide and implement a new plan of action. By raising the disruption index therein lies the opportunity. I ask you this...

    Q: Would a rapist continue if the victim defacated or urinated herself?
    Q: What does a carjacker do when his victim throws they keys far to the left and runs to the right?

    Back to OC and CC. Not everyone can OC. While in general it may be a deterrent to crime it will not back down a heavy gang-banger one inch. Especially on his own turf. Growing up in the murder capital of NY for most of my life I've repeatedly seen cops beotch slapped and their gun taken. These punks have all been shot, some multiple times. The nocturnal wildlife will kill for a dollar, for a gold chain. They'll kill you for nothing more than a thought going through their head. I've challenged anyone on this board to try a two-block walk in this city. Without argument you will not exit the two blocks with your gun and life intact. Now the real surprise... they too shop at Walmart?

    Considering the points above, the element of surprise is benecifial in both OC and CC. They key lies in understanding decision loops of the criminal element. There are some great books on Amazon that teach the techniques of raising the disruption index of the opponent in war, indivdual conflict and even business negotiations. This is golden stuff.

    As someone who doesn't or wouldn't OC I don't judge those who choose to exercise their rights. Each have their appropriate applications. But I will firmly state there is no element of surprise merely by virtue of the fact someone has a gun concealed. Without advanced knowledge, they're gettin shot before they get it out.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  6. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    I understand your logic. But you need to understand more about the element of surprise. Althouhg most frequently used in the context you present, the lelement of surpise is really nothing like that. Given the scenario you describe there fact the someone is CC and pulls is a very small part of what comprises the tactic inreality. I teach a class that ingrains in the student ways of breaking the OODA loop of the perp.

    In most criminal attacks the perp has undergone a series of mental processes before the attack commences. He hs OBSERVED the environment and persons involved.

    And with OC the perp has OBSERVED the would be victim is armed.. but with CC the perp is looking at someone who looks just like all the other potential victims... unarmed and easy prey.

    He has ORIENTED himself to the situation, environment and has developed his plan of attack. He has made the DECISION to attack. And then comes the ACT/ATTACK.

    Now I ask, in all sincerity, what is better... to interrupt the OODA loop at the first "O" (observed) and prevent all the rest of the mess? Or wait until we get to the "A" (attacked) and the attack is already in progress?

    The attack may occur in an unlimited number of unpredicable appraoches/methods. This is why we can train defensive skills into our students but we can never prepare them for exactly how the attack will unfold. This is precisely why "what if" scenarious on the web are laughable. Few can predict the behavior of either the perp or victim. Yet we must remember both are suffering the psychological and physiological aspects of a life and death encounter.

    As we know its nearly impossible to outdraw a drawn gun. But there are methods of disrupting the OODA loop that provide a fractional amount of time to react. Gunfights are won and lost in fractional time scales. Those who believe that CC provides an absolute elemenet of surprise are mistaken. Such techniques REQUIRE and understanding of the psychology of disruption of an OODA loop. Explaining them would be akin to presenting a "what if" scenario... a nono in my book. But the principal objective is to cause the perp to have to re-observe, re-orient, re-decide and implement a new plan of action. Therein lies the opportunity.

    So are you saying that the real "element of surprise" is CC'ing and waiting to be attacked so it will be possible to interrupt the perps OODA loop by telling him is shoe is untied giving the CC'er the "opportunity" to outdraw the perp's already drawn weapon?

    Please explain why it is better to CC and wait until the perp attacks before presenting him with an opportunity to re-observe, re-orient, re-decide and implement a new plan of action instead of OC and presenting him with all of that before he makes the decision to attack?


    Not everyone can OC. While in general it may be a deterrent to crime it will not back down a heavy gang-banger one inch. Especially on his own turf. Growing up in the murder capital of NY for most of my life I've repeatedly seen cops ***** slapped and their gun taken. They'll kill for a dollar, for a gold chain. They'll kill you for nothing more than a though going through their head. I've challenged anyone on this board to try a two-block walk in this city. Without argumnt you will not exit the two blocks with your gun and life intact. now the real surprise... they too shop at Walmart?

    Considering the points above, the element of surprise is benecifial in both OC and CC. They key lies in understanding decision loops of the criminal element. There are some great books on Amazon that apply this tecdhnique to raise the disruption index of the opponent in war, indivdual conflict and even business negotiations. This is golden stuff.

    As someone who doesn't or wouldn't OC I don't judge those who choose to exercise their rights. Each have their appropriate applications. But I will firmly state there is no element of surprise merely by virtue of the fact someone has a gun concealed. Without advanced knowledge, they're gettin shot before they get it out.
    Bouncing off your post.

    Some general comments not directed at any one individual...

    Without a doubt it is a wise person who explores all possible methods/techniques of defending themselves ... including the passive use of force to prevent the attack from even happening in the first place that open carry affords but concealed carry does not.

    As for the really bad super tough dude that folks keep bringing up as some kind of proof that open carry does not deter criminals because it doesn't deter the super tough one.... I say..

    Show me where CC will deter that same super tough bad guy... but we know it won't and I understand that when faced with that really tough determined criminal it doesn't matter what method of carry is used because... the carrier is in deep crap either way.

    And I also say this simple thing:

    If OC deters the not so determined criminal then I didn't have to react to his attacking me because I did not look like all the other unarmed easy prey so he did not attack... All I had to do was know he was there and watch him move on to attack someone else... probably a CC'er who looks like easy prey. But I didn't have to point at his shoes hoping I could interrupt his concentration so I could outdraw him... and I didn't have to deal with the aftermath that goes along with having had to do that...

    With CC I would have had to react to an attack by a not so determined criminal... but with OC all I had to do was go home safe and unmolested while some poor CC'er is busy desperately trying to implement the magical mystical "element of surprise" to save his ass.

    If OC prevents an attack from a not so determined criminal then that is one attack that I don't have to defend myself from because it didn't happen. Should I throw away the deterrent ability of OC against the not so determined just because it won't work against the determined one?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Considering the points above, the element of surprise is benecifial in both OC and CC. They key lies in understanding decision loops of the criminal element. There are some great books on Amazon that teach the techniques of raising the disruption index of the opponent in war, indivdual conflict and even business negotiations. This is golden stuff.
    Great post! I just moved to Idaho from DC and, if we could carry there, it would definitely be CC. All of the BG's are armed in there.
    If I were to only buy one or two of these books, which two would you recommend?
    As for why I OC, when I moved to Idaho and found that we could wear it on our hip, I became very Pentecostal about the 2nd Amendment and OC. Because so many liberals are moving out of California to Idaho to escape the mess they left there, within 10 years we will lose OC if we don't practice it. 90% of the reason I carry is to educate the citizens here about their right to OC. I man displays at the local gun shows and I'd say that 95% of the citizens here do not know that you can OC without a license. That is how the anti-gun left wins their battles in the legislature, the citizens don't know, so they don't object when they lose the right.
    [email protected]
    Idaho Open Carry.org
    Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
    and the first line of defense against the anti-gun left, and the first casualty when neglected.

  8. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    As for the really bad super tough dude that folks keep bringing up as some kind of proof that open carry does not deter criminals because it doesn't deter the super tough one.... I say..

    Show me where CC will deter that same super tough bad guy... but we know it won't and I understand that when faced with that really tough determined criminal it doesn't matter what method of carry is used because... the carrier is in deep crap either way.
    That's just it. CC will not deter anyone because the perp has no idea the victim is capable of such a response. OC does absolutely make a difference in the decision loop as most rational people would not continue with the attack knowing the victim is armed. But it's not that cut and dry. The real heavy hitter is someone that few people will ever personally experience. This person is nothing short of a predatory animal of notoriously viscious and intemperate disposition. He lacks the brain wiring to experiene fear. He may be killing someone for nothing more than a gang initiation. He will not be backed off by the observation of the gun, but rather may merely alter the method of attack. Remember, he is a sociopath who has possibly been shot/stabbed before, possibly multiple times. He doesn't care about being shot. OC is no gaurantee against him as he fears nothing. Sometimes we're dealing with some very disturbed people.

    Now should this animal get the drop on you with a gun your chances of drawing and beating him are better with OC than CC but the odds are still strongly stacked against you. Plain and simple... it's nearly impossible to beat a drawn gun... unless you posses certain skills to raise his disruption index.

    All I had to do was know he was there and watch him move on to attack someone else... probably a CC'er who looks like easy prey. But I didn't have to point at his shoes hoping I could interrupt his concentration so I could outdraw him... and I didn't have to deal with the aftermath that goes along with having had to do that.
    Many who have been the victim of a violent attack will confirm that it happened without warning, presented little chance to see it coming (even while practicing good situational awareness), occurred very quickly and was extremely violent. To think situational awareness will always catch it is a grave mistake. I have a surveilance video from an Atlantic City casino where a gal hit pretty big on a slot machine. The video captures the three girls walking off the boardwalk toward the parking lot. Two well-dressed white males are walking toward them, laughing and they seem to not even notice the girls. As they pass each other the two guys turned and delivered a vicious beting to the heads of all three girls. They grabbed the pocketbooks and bolted. The time on the video showed the entire crime took less than two seconds. The speed was astounding. There was no prior warning and the perps looked like yuppie college students. They didn't trip the awareness cycle. Neither CC or OC would have helped.

    You defined it correctly by calling CC the magical mystical element of surprise because many think CC = surprise = win. That's simply wrong. OC will be a larger deterrent to the vast majority of criminals. The CC'r who thinks thats all he needs for surprise is gettin shot.

    I maintain that neither will beat a drawn gun without understanding the behavioral loop and how to disrupt it. I do believe OC provides a greater deterrent than CC. I believe that neither will deter a complete psycho who has no ability to feel fear and who has probably been shot before.

    In summary, I must support OC in this argument as the more effective choice.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  9. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1:275632
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    As for the really bad super tough dude that folks keep bringing up as some kind of proof that open carry does not deter criminals because it doesn't deter the super tough one.... I say..

    Show me where CC will deter that same super tough bad guy... but we know it won't and I understand that when faced with that really tough determined criminal it doesn't matter what method of carry is used because... the carrier is in deep crap either way.
    That's just it. CC will not deter anyone because the perp has no idea the victim is capable of such a response. OC does absolutely make a difference in the decision loop as most rational people would not continue with the attack knowing the victim is armed. But it's not that cut and dry. The real heavy hitter is someone that few people will ever personally experience. This person is nothing short of a predatory animal of notoriously viscious and intemperate disposition. He lacks the brain wiring to experiene fear. He may be killing someone for nothing more than a gang initiation. He will not be backed off by the observation of the gun, but rather may merely alter the method of attack. Remember, he is a sociopath who has possibly been shot/stabbed before, possibly multiple times. He doesn't care about being shot. OC is no gaurantee against him as he fears nothing. Sometimes we're dealing with some very disturbed people.

    Now should this animal get the drop on you with a gun your chances of drawing and beating him are better with OC than CC but the odds are still strongly stacked against you. Plain and simple... it's nearly impossible to beat a drawn gun... unless you posses certain skills to raise his disruption index.

    All I had to do was know he was there and watch him move on to attack someone else... probably a CC'er who looks like easy prey. But I didn't have to point at his shoes hoping I could interrupt his concentration so I could outdraw him... and I didn't have to deal with the aftermath that goes along with having had to do that.
    Many who have been the victim of a violent attack will confirm that it happened without warning, presented little chance to see it coming (even while practicing good situational awareness), occurred very quickly and was extremely violent. To think situational awareness will always catch it is a grave mistake. I have a surveilance video from an Atlantic City casino where a gal hit pretty big on a slot machine. The video captures the three girls walking off the boardwalk toward the parking lot. Two well-dressed white males are walking toward them, laughing and they seem to not even notice the girls. As they pass each other the two guys turned and delivered a vicious beting to the heads of all three girls. They grabbed the pocketbooks and bolted. The time on the video showed the entire crime took less than two seconds. The speed was astounding. There was no prior warning and the perps looked like yuppie college students. They didn't trip the awareness cycle. Neither CC or OC would have helped.

    You defined it correctly by calling CC the magical mystical element of surprise because many think CC = surprise = win. That's simply wrong. OC will be a larger deterrent to the vast majority of criminals. The CC'r who thinks thats all he needs for surprise is gettin shot.

    I maintain that neither will beat a drawn gun without understanding the behavioral loop and how to disrupt it. I do believe OC provides a greater deterrent than CC. I believe that neither will deter a complete psycho who has no ability to feel fear and who has probably been shot before.

    In summary, I must support OC in this argument as the more effective choice.
    You deserve a cookie. :-)
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    You deserve a cookie. :-)
    Homemade choc chips??????
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  11. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Homemade choc chips??????
    Would double stuff Oreos be OK?

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