Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy - Page 39
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Thread: Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy

  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    The breach is of hypocrisy. That CC'ers seem to be able to generalize the OC crowd, but can't take it when they receive it back :-)

    I'm saying it...just saying....
    LOL, three-che' even. I wasn't startin' nuthin' sheriff...


    Seriously, very happy to have the ability to carry here in Wisconsin. I prefer concealed, but do oc when I am afield in the fall with my Springers.

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  3. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count-to-Nine:283288
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    The breach is of hypocrisy. That CC'ers seem to be able to generalize the OC crowd, but can't take it when they receive it back :-)

    I'm saying it...just saying....
    LOL, three-che' even. I wasn't startin' nuthin' sheriff...


    Seriously, very happy to have the ability to carry here in Wisconsin. I prefer concealed, but do oc when I am afield in the fall with my Springers.
    :) Well you did start somethin' when you quoted me boss....

    Glad to hear you open carry though.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Irishcopper View Post
    In all due respect sir, you don't have any facts to back up what you say. There is no statistical evidence suggesting that open carry is wise from a tactical standpoint. Pipedream? Damn, I haven't heard that term in many years! Open carry in an urban setting like Detroit, New Orleans and Memphis is simply a tactically poor choice. Those are the beats that I've worked dealing everyday with some of the most feral sub-humans you can imagine.

    If you want to walk around Arizona, Nevada and Utah or ride your motorcycle packing a 1911 on your hip like you are Wyatt Earp that is your business. All I suggested was that you at least use a "Level II" holster, practice situational awareness and know some basic weapons retention technics. With regard to your comment "OC works better for me. I feel safer, it is more comfortable, people are more polite, no problems waiting in lines, no BS, and few street people ask me for money." I have read your post several times. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like that you are trying to intimidate people. Do you really think that is is a good idea? I don't care how tough you think you are, there is always someone out there that is tougher and can draw quicker than you!

    I've been a military and law enforcement survival and tactics instuctor for twenty years and worked on the streets of America's most dangerous cities. How many real life deadly force encounters have ever been in where open carry gave you an edge on your opponent. It's a rhetorical question that I already know the answer to. It's none!

    I support your right to OC under the Second Amendment. However, in all due respect thirty years of military and law enforcement experience tells me it's a bad idea! I guess we will agree to disagree! Stay safe out there!
    I was trying to show firsthand experience of OCing for me. Not bragging or trying to show off, grew out of the show off stage 35 plus years ago. We see it all the time where a person dead set against open carry posting their opinion as if it is fact to support their belief that all open carry is bad. When in fact most that do make that claim have never open carried due to their own unfounded belief. There is no data to support such a blanket statements that OC or CCing is better.
    Do a little research by reading the 10s of thousands of postings on open carry dot org who do, and have actually OCed. A good indication that most of the dreamed up reasons against open carry is a pipedream. Is there exceptions one carry method over the other? Sure.
    I have CC for over 15 years now OC for the past two plus years. I have firsthand experience CCing and OCing. I have a second job that is an open carry armed position. My family weekend starting back in the 60s as a kid was going to the range once a week. Shot competition throughout high school. Harvest my share of deer. I understand some of the listed experience has very little to do with OCing however hoping to show no need for me to be a show off or cowboy.
    I use a high quality retention holster, I stay clear of high crime areas, I stay aware. I will CC if I believe I will be entering a situation where I feel it is safer to CC. I have never suggested that OCiing is better than CCing as I have no data that says so; I have never seen or read any. Here is what I do have a heartache over and that is the blanked statements that OCing is bad.
    In my years of public carrying, never has an issue has come up where I felt the need to put my hand on my firearm. A few times, I was glad I had it however, was able to change the situation by moving on. It is my plan, intent and to the best of my ability to never have need to pull it for self-defense.
    I am trying to determine what value comes from statements and terms such as Cowboy, have not heard pipedream in years, or Wyatt Earp. Not sure if that can be considered as good data to bolster ones opinion. Usually this method comes from a person or persons that are frustrated from not having credible data to back their beliefs or opinion. A common tactic from one that has self-serving needs to cut down others in hopes it makes them look and hopefully feel better while having no value to support their opinion or argument, often times signs of a psychological deficiency.
    Stop making the open carry is bad blanket statements with no credible data and you will stop being wrong.

    Hoping having the right to carry never turns into the need to use.

  5. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    :) Well you did start somethin' when you quoted me boss....

    Glad to hear you open carry though.
    Oh come on, you grouped cc'ers into a corral, solely for the purpose of retaliation. I too can speak my mind. I was too much of a "newbie" to realize there are separate camps here. Carry is carry in my opinion, I do believe that's why I bought tickets for this ride...

  6. #385
    Flanmedic51 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Count-to-Nine View Post
    Oh come on, you grouped cc'ers into a corral, solely for the purpose of retaliation. I too can speak my mind. I was too much of a "newbie" to realize there are separate camps here. Carry is carry in my opinion, I do believe that's why I bought tickets for this ride...
    I've come to realize that the realities of my every day life and my friends/colleagues is NOT the realities and ideologies of a lot of crap that is posted here. Its what you get in a forum like this with a bunch of (mostly) males. Its like everyone is comparing pecker size or something. However unfortunate that threads like this separate out the 2 types of carry, it still demonstrates ideologies of many of the OCers that IMO has an impact on gun rights overall...and not always in a good way. I was NEVER taught or grew up with the teachings of wearing a gun as a political statement. People here state that it's NOT intended to stick in people's faces, and then there are people here that say they are proud to stick it in people's faces and make a point of it. And that's the problem that I see in it. I find no issue in OC with the practicality of it...it's some of the mind sets that scare me. I don't think that mind set helps 2A rights. And along with that, I get tired of reading about an OCer getting asked to leave a store because of so-called anti firearm policies. Well, again I CC because of the practical application. So in an instance like this, I stay armed 100% of the time and there is no issue about having my 2A rights potentially infringed on and then complaining about it on a forum like this. OC vs CC....its like the 9mm vs 45acp debate. Just carry for christ's sake but to wear it to stick it in people's face (not all of you do I understand) is just in poor taste and THAT's why this debate continues and always will. Good day...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Flanmedic51 View Post
    And along with that, I get tired of reading about an OCer getting asked to leave a store because of so-called anti firearm policies. Well, again I CC because of the practical application. So in an instance like this, I stay armed 100% of the time and there is no issue about having my 2A rights potentially infringed on and then complaining about it on a forum like this.
    Why can't I just go out to the parking lot, flip my shirt over my gun and go right back in and finish shopping? I'm a practical person, I have my state issued permission slip (CPL) for a reason.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count-to-Nine:283474
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    :) Well you did start somethin' when you quoted me boss....

    Glad to hear you open carry though.
    Oh come on, you grouped cc'ers into a corral, solely for the purpose of retaliation. I too can speak my mind. I was too much of a "newbie" to realize there are separate camps here. Carry is carry in my opinion, I do believe that's why I bought tickets for this ride...
    Me, grouping together cc'ers in retaliation is somehow worse, than flan grouping together oc'ers when making his first insulting remarks...hmmm..possibly.

    You should speak your mind, I have no issues with that, just with the hypocrisy. I like that you feel you didn't see two groups, that's the way it should be. It's too bad there are people that want to push the groups apart, and if I get pushed, I don't mind pushing back. Maybe that's wrong, maybe instead, if the cc crowd doesn't want to accept me open carrying, then I will leave their cause, and only fight for open carrier rights. They want to weaken their support that's fine. If you hadn't spoken your mind, I may not have come to this conclusion. Anyways, thank you for seeing it as carrying as carrying, I hope your views don't get tainted, and I apologize for lumping you into the cc crowd that wants to seperate each other.

    @Flan

    Both our rights are being infringed upon, even if you don't want to realise it. The only difference is, is I don't disrespect the property owners wishes. Concealing the firearm doesn't mean the infringement isn't there. I will still get what I need, only I will go somewhere that does not infringe on my rights.

    You may feel many oc are hurting the cause...I may be in that crowd...but realize many oc feels you, and many cc'ers are hurting the cause as well. No wonder we are losing our rights faster than winning them back.
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  9. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanmedic51 View Post
    I've come to realize that the realities of my every day life and my friends/colleagues is NOT the realities and ideologies of a lot of crap that is posted here. Its what you get in a forum like this with a bunch of (mostly) males. Its like everyone is comparing pecker size or something. However unfortunate that threads like this separate out the 2 types of carry, it still demonstrates ideologies of many of the OCers that IMO has an impact on gun rights overall...and not always in a good way. I was NEVER taught or grew up with the teachings of wearing a gun as a political statement. People here state that it's NOT intended to stick in people's faces, and then there are people here that say they are proud to stick it in people's faces and make a point of it. And that's the problem that I see in it. I find no issue in OC with the practicality of it...it's some of the mind sets that scare me. I don't think that mind set helps 2A rights. And along with that, I get tired of reading about an OCer getting asked to leave a store because of so-called anti firearm policies. Well, again I CC because of the practical application. So in an instance like this, I stay armed 100% of the time and there is no issue about having my 2A rights potentially infringed on and then complaining about it on a forum like this. OC vs CC....its like the 9mm vs 45acp debate. Just carry for christ's sake but to wear it to stick it in people's face (not all of you do I understand) is just in poor taste and THAT's why this debate continues and always will. Good day...
    The reason this debate continues is that some folks think a CC "permit" somehow is the right to bear arms when it really is an infringement that "shall not be infringed" is in reference to.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks complain that the right to bear arms is disrespected yet think it is perfectly OK to disrespect the rights of a property owner by sneaking a hidden gun into/onto property that has a legitimate "no guns" policy. And then defend that disrespect with the notion that "concealed means concealed" somehow elevates that disrespect onto some higher moral ground.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks cannot understand that gun owner/carriers who want other gun owner/carriers to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms to only what they consider acceptable according to their own personal standards..... is the exact same thing as the anti gunners wanting other people to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms according to their personal standards. Please note that both want to tell other folks what is acceptable... and the only difference between the two is the degree of gun control desired... but it is still gun control none the less.

    The reason this debate continues is there is always someone who says:

    ->I support the right to bear arms but.........

    They shouldn't bear them in schools..

    They shouldn't bear them as a political statement..

    They should only bear them concealed...

    They should never bear them if it offends others...<-

    (----------and what they are really saying is---------)

    "Bearing arms should be limited to who/when/where/how/and why it is "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable"... to ME."

    And that is the exact same perspective the anti gunners have.

  10. #389
    Flanmedic51 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut:283704
    Quote Originally Posted by Flanmedic51 View Post
    I've come to realize that the realities of my every day life and my friends/colleagues is NOT the realities and ideologies of a lot of crap that is posted here. Its what you get in a forum like this with a bunch of (mostly) males. Its like everyone is comparing pecker size or something. However unfortunate that threads like this separate out the 2 types of carry, it still demonstrates ideologies of many of the OCers that IMO has an impact on gun rights overall...and not always in a good way. I was NEVER taught or grew up with the teachings of wearing a gun as a political statement. People here state that it's NOT intended to stick in people's faces, and then there are people here that say they are proud to stick it in people's faces and make a point of it. And that's the problem that I see in it. I find no issue in OC with the practicality of it...it's some of the mind sets that scare me. I don't think that mind set helps 2A rights. And along with that, I get tired of reading about an OCer getting asked to leave a store because of so-called anti firearm policies. Well, again I CC because of the practical application. So in an instance like this, I stay armed 100% of the time and there is no issue about having my 2A rights potentially infringed on and then complaining about it on a forum like this. OC vs CC....its like the 9mm vs 45acp debate. Just carry for christ's sake but to wear it to stick it in people's face (not all of you do I understand) is just in poor taste and THAT's why this debate continues and always will. Good day...
    The reason this debate continues is that some folks think a CC "permit" somehow is the right to bear arms when it really is an infringement that "shall not be infringed" is in reference to.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks complain that the right to bear arms is disrespected yet think it is perfectly OK to disrespect the rights of a property owner by sneaking a hidden gun into/onto property that has a legitimate "no guns" policy. And then defend that disrespect with the notion that "concealed means concealed" somehow elevates that disrespect onto some higher moral ground.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks cannot understand that gun owner/carriers who want other gun owner/carriers to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms to only what they consider acceptable according to their own personal standards..... is the exact same thing as the anti gunners wanting other people to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms according to their personal standards. Please note that both want to tell other folks what is acceptable... and the only difference between the two is the degree of gun control desired... but it is still gun control none the less.

    The reason this debate continues is there is always someone who says:

    ->I support the right to bear arms but.........

    They shouldn't bear them in schools..

    They shouldn't bear them as a political statement..

    They should only bear them concealed...

    They should never bear them if it offends others...<-

    (----------and what they are really saying is---------)

    "Bearing arms should be limited to who/when/where/how/and why it is "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable"... to ME."

    And that is the exact same perspective the anti gunners have.
    Although I don't agree with your perspective that CCers collectively think or act the way you say they do, I do agree that any CCer that skirts around the law by carrying in a business that prohibits firearms is failing the 2A....when that business is clearly posted. Otherwise a OCer could be ousted by an employee because of a 'policy' that has not been clearly posted. That is what I meant in my post. I do not endorse CC in a posted establishment...aka 'sneaking' a firearm in.

  11. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanmedic51:283733
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut:283704
    Quote Originally Posted by Flanmedic51 View Post
    I've come to realize that the realities of my every day life and my friends/colleagues is NOT the realities and ideologies of a lot of crap that is posted here. Its what you get in a forum like this with a bunch of (mostly) males. Its like everyone is comparing pecker size or something. However unfortunate that threads like this separate out the 2 types of carry, it still demonstrates ideologies of many of the OCers that IMO has an impact on gun rights overall...and not always in a good way. I was NEVER taught or grew up with the teachings of wearing a gun as a political statement. People here state that it's NOT intended to stick in people's faces, and then there are people here that say they are proud to stick it in people's faces and make a point of it. And that's the problem that I see in it. I find no issue in OC with the practicality of it...it's some of the mind sets that scare me. I don't think that mind set helps 2A rights. And along with that, I get tired of reading about an OCer getting asked to leave a store because of so-called anti firearm policies. Well, again I CC because of the practical application. So in an instance like this, I stay armed 100% of the time and there is no issue about having my 2A rights potentially infringed on and then complaining about it on a forum like this. OC vs CC....its like the 9mm vs 45acp debate. Just carry for christ's sake but to wear it to stick it in people's face (not all of you do I understand) is just in poor taste and THAT's why this debate continues and always will. Good day...
    The reason this debate continues is that some folks think a CC "permit" somehow is the right to bear arms when it really is an infringement that "shall not be infringed" is in reference to.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks complain that the right to bear arms is disrespected yet think it is perfectly OK to disrespect the rights of a property owner by sneaking a hidden gun into/onto property that has a legitimate "no guns" policy. And then defend that disrespect with the notion that "concealed means concealed" somehow elevates that disrespect onto some higher moral ground.

    The reason this debate continues is some folks cannot understand that gun owner/carriers who want other gun owner/carriers to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms to only what they consider acceptable according to their own personal standards..... is the exact same thing as the anti gunners wanting other people to limit their exercising of the right to bear arms according to their personal standards. Please note that both want to tell other folks what is acceptable... and the only difference between the two is the degree of gun control desired... but it is still gun control none the less.

    The reason this debate continues is there is always someone who says:

    ->I support the right to bear arms but.........

    They shouldn't bear them in schools..

    They shouldn't bear them as a political statement..

    They should only bear them concealed...

    They should never bear them if it offends others...<-

    (----------and what they are really saying is---------)

    "Bearing arms should be limited to who/when/where/how/and why it is "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable"... to ME."

    And that is the exact same perspective the anti gunners have.
    Although I don't agree with your perspective that CCers collectively think or act the way you say they do, I do agree that any CCer that skirts around the law by carrying in a business that prohibits firearms is failing the 2A....when that business is clearly posted. Otherwise a OCer could be ousted by an employee because of a 'policy' that has not been clearly posted. That is what I meant in my post. I do not endorse CC in a posted establishment...aka 'sneaking' a firearm in.
    What about stores that have no posting but frequently ask gun carriers to leave?
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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