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Thread: Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    The word 'cops' cover a wide family of law enforcement officers. The group of LEO's that open carry most are the partol officers, so I assume you are speaking of patrol officers.

    Patrol Officers carry openly for the obvious reasons. 1) as a show of force and the authority to use that force. 2) fast draw in panic situations. Note here that police are thrust into panic situations far more that any civilian ever will be and rely heavily on speedy aquisition. 3) have you seen all the crap they have to carry on their person/belt? 4) quic re-holstering so they can safely manipulate the other tools on their tool belt

    Compairing LEO reasoning for open carry against civilian decision to open carry is not a valid comparison. I don't believe "because cops do!" is a valid reasoning for open carry unles your intent is to identify yourself as a cop wanna be, and that reasoning alone is a good enough reason for you to NOT carry at all.

    The decision to either OC or CC is a personal one, just like my decision of what type of car I buy. All the expanation in the world why YOU (OCer) bought what you bought is not going to convince me (CCer) that I bought the wrong car. Simply stated "it fits my needs". And we need to recognize this argument goes both ways. I don't care if you legally OC. I may not agree with the decision but it is not my decision to make for you (only your state legislature can make decisions for you without your consent)

    I conceal carry for one reason alone. For concealment. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun. It's none of their business. Personnaly I think Open carry will draw more attention to myself and that's not why I carry. I want to be mistaken for a wall flower and ignored by everyone. I don't carry to stand out in a crowd. The element of suprise is a most powerful weapon.
    A good post Walt except for the last sentence. I was completely with you up to that point. Especially, when you give the only "REAL" and "LEGITIMENT" reason a person carries the way the do.
    "The decision to either OC or CC is a personal one," .... "it fits my needs" .... "I conceal carry for one reason alone. For concealment. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun."
    ^^^ALL very legit reasons not to OC^^^^

    IMHO;
    Every other thing you said was right on point.

    You hit the nail on the head about OC & CC being a personal choice. I also give you big props for recognizing both methods are "valid"; and different situations may call for different methods.

    BUT!

    If you're chosen to be a victim by a BG, you have already given up the element of surprise. It has been said many, many times in these discussions; and it is still as TRUE now as ever:

    "Surprise" is an "OFFENSIVE" tactic!

    As an honest, law-abiding citizen, we will most likely ALWAYS enter a confrontation from a "DEFENSIVE" position. This simply means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a CCer or OCer to have the "element of surprise" on their side; PERIOD!

    -----------

    I'm sorry and I mean no offense!

    But, instructors that teach the "element of surprise" is a "DEFENSIVE" tactic just do not know what they are talking about. IMHO; they are running a real risk of instilling a false sense of security in their students.

    -------------

    Now for the caveat;

    If you CC, you can argue that the "surprise" comes into play when you choose fight back "AFTER" an altercation is imminent, or has already begun. But, this is a false argument from a "tactical" standpoint.

    The above being said;
    The very first objective to surviving ANY fight should be to turn the tables on your opponent by putting them on the "defensive".

    (The ONLY choice that any CCer or UN-armed victim has if a BG picks them as a victim is to go on the "DEFENSIVE" and fight; or a CCer can simply give up.)

    Theabove is NOT true when you OC!

    Where CC can be looked at as "ONLY" a defensive stategy, OC on the other hand can also be seen as an "OFFENSIVE" stategy. (A PRE-emptive tactic; an preventative measure if you will)

    What OC tells a BG is that if he does choose "YOU" or any other people around you to be their victims, they will most likely face a REAL THREAT to their own life. This allows a BG to make a better "educated" decision.

    A bg ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS choose their victims on the "Risk-vs-Reward" principal. This means that BGs are ALWAYS looking for the easiest target (Lowest Risk target) for any "REWARD" they are seeking.


    AVOIDING a confrontation with a BG should be the PRIMARY goal of anyone who carries. IMHO; this is where OC outperforms CC.

    Now for another caveat;
    Depending on "WHAT" reward a BG is looking to get from a victim, and "HOW BAD" he wants what a victim can offer, dictates the DANGER of any encounter.

    For instance:
    • If the BG is a terrorist that is willing to die during their crime, ANYONE and EVERYONE is in grave danger irregargless of there SD training & techniques.

    • Likewise, if you are in the vicinity of a DBS, your firearm is not likely to help you at all because "drive-bys" usually happen to fast.

    • If you are in a place that an "armed" thug chooses to rob, you may be in EXTREME danger, but not in IMMINENT danger. (Other variables will come into play)

    • IF a BG is a normal street bum who will resort to assault if you refuse his desire for a handout, the danger can still be EXTREME. But, this type of criminal if far more likely to go elsewhere if he knows his victim is very likely to fight back.
    ---------

    Itis with the last TWO examples where OC has been REAL-LIFE tested to actually deter crime.

    As far as I know, there are no statistics where a BG chose not to rob a business of choose a victim because he "KNEW" a CC'er was armed.

    (Remember: a BG "thinking" you may be armed is NOT the same thing as a BG "KNOWING" you are armed.)

    Peace!

    -

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  3. #62
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    If you conceal carry, and you have ever drawn your weapon but did not fire it, why did the presence of a firearm work? Why didn't the bad guy keep pursuing you? I have read a handful of personal stories of a bad situation brewing, and the CC opening their jacket to expose their weapon, to have the bad guy turn around or walk another direction. So please, explain CC'ers that have had this first hand experience, how deterrence doesn't work?

  4. #63
    Just an FYI, for a LONG time NYC cops did not OC. Look at any old movie from the 40's, and 50's, and you'll see they're weapons are covered. They had to draw just like any CCer, pulling back or up on their jacket.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. #64
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    Why would you care if I choose to open carry? It's my ass, my choice and I don't buy into the bs tactical advantage theory.

    "It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it" - SGB

  6. Hmmm...I don't need to showy "gun" however I would like an OC law so I don't have to worry if someone sees its' outline... Just saying :-)

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGB:226964
    Why would you care if I choose to open carry? It's my ass, my choice and I don't buy into the bs tactical advantage theory.
    Win with a double deuce!!!

  8. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by walt629 View Post
    The word 'cops' cover a wide family of law enforcement officers. The group of LEO's that open carry most are the partol officers, so I assume you are speaking of patrol officers.

    Patrol Officers carry openly for the obvious reasons. 1) as a show of force and the authority to use that force. 2) fast draw in panic situations. Note here that police are thrust into panic situations far more that any civilian ever will be and rely heavily on speedy aquisition. 3) have you seen all the crap they have to carry on their person/belt? 4) quic re-holstering so they can safely manipulate the other tools on their tool belt

    Compairing LEO reasoning for open carry against civilian decision to open carry is not a valid comparison. I don't believe "because cops do!" is a valid reasoning for open carry unles your intent is to identify yourself as a cop wanna be, and that reasoning alone is a good enough reason for you to NOT carry at all.

    The decision to either OC or CC is a personal one, just like my decision of what type of car I buy. All the expanation in the world why YOU (OCer) bought what you bought is not going to convince me (CCer) that I bought the wrong car. Simply stated "it fits my needs". And we need to recognize this argument goes both ways. I don't care if you legally OC. I may not agree with the decision but it is not my decision to make for you (only your state legislature can make decisions for you without your consent)

    I conceal carry for one reason alone. For concealment. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun. It's none of their business. Personnaly I think Open carry will draw more attention to myself and that's not why I carry. I want to be mistaken for a wall flower and ignored by everyone. I don't carry to stand out in a crowd. The element of suprise is a most powerful weapon.
    Someone finally answered the question. Cops (patrol officer LEO's if you need that specificity) open carry as a show of force and for faster draw in panic situations. Those reasons apply to citizens who choose to open carry too. I rarely open carry but I fully support those who choose to open carry all the time. My point is that if open carry was so bad and dangerous as some people say, then American patrol officer LEO's wouldn't openly carry, they would either not carry (like most LEO's in Britain) or they would concealed carry to help prevent bad guys from grabbing their guns (which still happens).
    I don't think law abiding citizens who choose to open carry are "police wannabes" any more than undercover cops who concealed carry are "cop not wannabes". Its like you said, just a personal choice.
    A man's life, liberty, and property are only safe when the legislature is NOT in session. Will Rogers

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    A good post Walt except for the last sentence. I was completely with you up to that point. Especially, when you give the only "REAL" and "LEGITIMENT" reason a person carries the way the do.

    <<CLIP FOR EXPEDIENCE>>


    If you're chosen to be a victim by a BG, you have already given up the element of surprise. It has been said many, many times in these discussions; and it is still as TRUE now as ever:

    "Surprise" is an "OFFENSIVE" tactic!

    As an honest, law-abiding citizen, we will most likely ALWAYS enter a confrontation from a "DEFENSIVE" position. This simply means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a CCer or OCer to have the "element of surprise" on their side; PERIOD!

    -----------

    I'm sorry and I mean no offense!

    But, instructors that teach the "element of surprise" is a "DEFENSIVE" tactic just do not know what they are talking about. IMHO; they are running a real risk of instilling a false sense of security in their students.

    -------------
    Peace!

    -[/I][/B]
    Thanks for the positive feed back Tcox. It's nice to have a discussion over an issue instead of getting into the shouting and sniping matches we see here so often. I realize that emotions fall out of the pocket as soon as someone thinks they are being told "Your way is not the right way" (said in a booming voice as if it came from overhead)

    Everyone has their own idea of what is the right way for them to carry. Like I said (I think I said) I have always carried concealed. I think even if Florida permited open carry tomorrow I'd have a hard time transitioning. I'd have fun doing so, just think of the shopping spree for new extenal gear! Oh! Sorry! Got lost in the thought for the moment.

    The issue of Defensive vs Ofensive is one I'd like to persue.

    If I'm walking down the street and am accosted by a BG, he thinks he has the upper hand, his 'element of suprise', otherwise I don't think the accostation would be taking place. So for the moment I am put on the defensive. But at the moment I decide to fight back I would be doing so with an Offensivemind set and at that time, if appropriate, I would be drawing my weapon in an offensive condition(much to the BG's suprise). Arguable perhaps but I think it would be a matter of semantics.

    Plus, regardless if we OC or CC we ALL consider our weapon of choice to be a DEFENSIVE weapon. I cannot imagine my weapon ever being an offensive weapon unless I am purposfully (premeditated) setting out to do someone harm (commit a crime).

    I agree with some of your premis for OC especially the deterrance part, and the speed of acqusition (was that you?). And I'll even go along with the educational aspect of OC but I think that issue is far fetched and haas to be encountered in just the right circumstance and 'taught' by the right person. I don't think I would always be that right person.

    All this being said, personal choice is what make our great nation great. For the time being and the laws of the state being what they are, conceal carry is my method of carry.

    Take it easy and carry safe!

  10. Quote Originally Posted by disneyr View Post
    Someone finally answered the question. Cops (patrol officer LEO's if you need that specificity) open carry as a show of force and for faster draw in panic situations. Those reasons apply to citizens who choose to open carry too. I rarely open carry but I fully support those who choose to open carry all the time. My point is that if open carry was so bad and dangerous as some people say, then American patrol officer LEO's wouldn't openly carry, they would either not carry (like most LEO's in Britain) or they would concealed carry to help prevent bad guys from grabbing their guns (which still happens).
    AND, on top of all that, if the "element of surprise" was the ultimate weapon, we wouldn't have uniformed police. We would have police who looked and acted like every other Joe Citizen out there, watching for crime to happen, so they could yell, "SURPRISE" and catch the criminals.

    Why do armored car companies mark their vehicles and have visibly armed and uniformed security guards? Wouldn't the "element of surprise" be more effective if they used unmarked vans and undercover guards? Why does ADT insist on putting signs in the yards and stickers on the windows? Why do auto alarm companies but flashing red lights in the dash? Why don't all these companies and government entitites utilize the "element of surprise" if it is so effective against criminals?
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  11. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    AND, on top of all that, if the "element of surprise" was the ultimate weapon, we wouldn't have uniformed police. We would have police who looked and acted like every other Joe Citizen out there, watching for crime to happen, so they could yell, "SURPRISE" and catch the criminals.

    Why do armored car companies mark their vehicles and have visibly armed and uniformed security guards? Wouldn't the "element of surprise" be more effective if they used unmarked vans and undercover guards? Why does ADT insist on putting signs in the yards and stickers on the windows? Why do auto alarm companies but flashing red lights in the dash? Why don't all these companies and government entitites utilize the "element of surprise" if it is so effective against criminals?
    Another good point. We do have undercover police because criminals can't usually be caught in the act or set up when they know a police officer with a gun (I know redundant) is nearby. It seems that whenever there are openly carrying, uniformed police around, that criminals are deterred from crime temporarily.

    I think the same is mostly true of criminals when they see one or more openly carried firearms at a location. Unless the criminal is a crazy "suicide by cop type" the criminal will usually just go to another location without armed men (or women) around.
    A man's life, liberty, and property are only safe when the legislature is NOT in session. Will Rogers

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