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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerbob View Post
    For which side of the argument is this in BC?
    My father taught me the biggest trouble-maker I'll ever know is the guy watching me shave every morning. Over a lifetime he'll cause me more aggravation than anyone else. But I can control his actions. Thus I wouldn't test anyone. No LEO, no judge. There are azzhats in every profession. Bad doctors, lawyers, accountants and... LEO's. If I have to bang every azzhat, I'll spend my life doing it.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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  3. #12

    Police being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerbob View Post
    For which side of the argument is this in BC?
    My father taught me the biggest trouble-maker I'll ever know is the guy watching me shave every morning. Over a lifetime he'll cause me more aggravation than anyone else. But I can control his actions. Thus I wouldn't test anyone. No LEO, no judge. There are azzhats in every profession. Bad doctors, lawyers, accountants and... LEO's. If I have to bang every azzhat, I'll spend my life doing it.
    So if I understand your post correctly, you're willing to just play along with every violation of your rights by a LEO just because he might be an "azzhat" and you don't want to test him? The first subject of this article, wasn't being a trouble maker, nor was he testing anybody. He was simply exercising his constitutional rights, and refused to be a victim of oppression by some uneducated "azzhat" LEO. Again, if I understood your post correctly (apologies if I didn't), the difference between you and the subject in the article is that he has balls.

  4. #13
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    There are jerks, **********, and punks. There are also kind, respectful, and mature individuals. Ask yourself when you carry, which type of person you want to project to the public.

    I swear, some us are our own worst enemies. We go out in public and try to pick a fight. How many times have we seen videos trying to bait a cop or forums where someone says they "freaked out" someone by open carrying.

    *shrugs* If you project a kind and respectful tone when you are out and about, it's really hard to "freak" people out with or without a firearm on your hip. Can it happen, I suppose, but I personally have never met anyone in my life that has caused someone to panic and either call 911 or hunt a LEO because they were open carrying. If that should happen, I would question the demeanor of the person carrying as well.
    Last edited by wolf_fire; 05-28-2013 at 11:15 PM. Reason: typo
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  5. #14
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    On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

    Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

    Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

    What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

    The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

    And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.

  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

    Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

    Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

    What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

    The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

    And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.
    Good point. The difference is, their job is to enforce the law, hence the name law enforcement officer. Yours (proverbial) is not. However, exercising your rights by open carrying while going about your daily business and then suing the hell out of the idiot department that arrested you on trumped up charges isn't testing the police. It's just you pursuing liberty and justice in this supposedly free country.

    On the other hand, walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it! (Again not speaking directly to you.)

  7. #16
    We have to remember that LEOs are doing their job to the best of their ability. In some cases the LEO happens to do a horrible job and unfortunately that is the best they can do. It could be a training issue as is definitely the case in Cincinnati, hence Chief Craig's memo to officers. It could also be the officer is simply an idiot; there are stupid people in every profession.

    As citizens it is our duty just as much as the LEOs to uphold the law. The difference is we have a personal responsibility to uphold the law in regards to our own actions, not enforce the law as it pertains to the actions of others. Launching our own "sting operations" to catch the police violating your rights is irresponsible. It draws attention to you which takes time away from the officer who may be needed elsewhere.

  8. #17
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    Even thou provoking is one way to educate the public about Open Carry, I think it can be done in another way that educates the population.

    Unfortunately the local or state law enforcement isn't going to do it for us. It'll have to be us as the NRA, SAF and other large gun clubs are too busy fighting the government trying to keep our 2A rights. It's going to have to be us on a grassroots basis to get the word out to the low information public.

    So when y'all get the stupid questions about your sidearm, spend a few minutes and educate a non carrier. It'll pay off down the line!
    ~Responsible people who understand that their personal protection is up to them, provide themselves with protection. Those that don't have only themselves to blame.~Proud NRA ~SAF~GoA Member~

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    Good point. The difference is, their job is to enforce the law, hence the name law enforcement officer. Yours (proverbial) is not. However, exercising your rights by open carrying while going about your daily business and then suing the hell out of the idiot department that arrested you on trumped up charges isn't testing the police. It's just you pursuing liberty and justice in this supposedly free country.

    On the other hand, walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it! (Again not speaking directly to you.)
    I understood your post to not be directed at me personally. Please understand my reply isn't directed at you personally either.. we are merely discussing.

    Yes, it is the job of LE to enforce the law... and it is the job of us citizens to keep an eye on our government officials and employees. To think that the government/police are above the scrutiny of an ordinary citizen is to have an upside down perspective of who is supposed to be in charge in this country.

    The thing is... until someone tests the waters concerning legal open carry in a State/area/place where the sight of a sidearm on anyone other than LE would be unusual actually is "testing" LE... and it is AFTER the police are tested/fail the test/are educated that it becomes possible for folks to wander around doing their normal everyday activities while open carrying.

    There are two things about your statement I'd like to address...

    Quote Originally Posted by jcreek View Post
    walking back and forth on a main thoroughfare with a film crew and a gun on your hip, waiting for somebody to call the police, is different. You're not an IA investigator and you're not doing anything to further 2A rights, so stop it!
    1. Most recordings of police misdeeds are legally taken with covert recording equipment (covert recording is legal under some conditions in some States-check your State's recording laws!)... there isn't a full on "film crew" present. Just like the police film with dash cams citizens also film with equipment that isn't a "film crew". And again, if the cops weren't breaking the law the recording would show that.

    The old phrase that the cops tell us "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" could also be directed at the cops with "If you aren't breaking the law you have nothing to fear from a covert recording of your actions."

    2. Now.. if no one has the balls to "bait" the cops by engaging in unusual, but legal!, actions while open carrying then who is going to cause the cops to become educated? How will anything change? Someone has to start the ball rolling and cause the police to learn that open carry is legal.... so other people eventually can just wander around doing ordinary stuff open carrying.

    Also... when a very few folks here in Michigan started open carrying (even open carrying scary rifles! GASP!) and the police did their illegal detainment thing and were sued over it... and the media jumped on it hoping to sensationalize and demonize it...

    .. the end result was the State police issued Legal Update #86

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    to all police depts. in the State AND the negatively slanted media coverage actually ended up informing a vast majority of citizens in Michigan that not only was open carry legal but no permit was needed to do it. (Some restrictions apply... check the laws before doing it!!!)

    In short... it was those who came before daring to "test" the police (and legally record the results followed by holding them accountable) that caused open carry to become accepted as legal by the police and by the populace.

    I hope folks never ever stop legally testing the police because if "we the people" don't do it ... who will?

    So, in my opinion, those legal open carriers (including those legally open carrying scary rifles) seen on utube being hassled by the police are not showing how silly or stupid the open carrier is... but are showing everyone how the police are breaking the law by hassling a citizen engaged in a legal activity.

    After all... "If I'm doing nothing wrong I should not have to fear being hassled by the cops for doing............... nothing wrong."

  10. #19
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    Civil Disobedience Rising Across America as Citizens Fed up With Criminal Government

    NaturalNews Network
    NaturalNews.com
    May 28th, 2013
    Reader Views: 3,631

    Comments (79)


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    by: J. D. Heyes
    Nearly everywhere you turn, crowds of angry Americans are gathering, no longer content to merely sit idly by and remain spectators to the cavalcade of injustices being perpetuated ad nauseum against We the People by criminal governments that have long since lost their legitimacy.
    Run by an elitist ruling class, they prove daily that an elected body can trample rights the same as a sitting monarch or dictator.
    The soft tyranny we endure now on a daily basis has turned scores of Americans into reluctant activists, no longer satisfied with participation in mundane “demonstrations” that prove and accomplish nothing.
    Rising tide of anger
    Some recent cases in point bear rise to this unrest, and if history is a guide, such occurrences will only become more frequent – and more violent – as our rights, traditions and heritage are trampled, disregarded and disrespected.
    Take one case in New Jersey recently, where a state Senate panel on gun control cut off testimony on a bill – citing “procedure” – when citizens in attendance clearly had more they wanted to say, as evidenced by their requests to do so from the gallery. As seen in this video, a couple of individuals who attempted to speak were made to leave by a court police officer, but when one man – Frank Fiamingo, president of the New Jersey Second Amendment Society – had enough of the Senate panel’s dismissive attitude, he organized the dozens of attendees into reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, at which time the a) the Senate panel abandoned its attempts to have audience members thrown out; and b) mostly refused to stand during the recitation of the pledge (one senator finally stood towards the end of the pledge).
    Here’s how it went down, according to one witness account:
    “After a late start, and a “ten minute break” that lasted more than a half hour, the NJ Senate committee on gun control decides to cut off public comment on the proposed gun control bills at 4 o’clock. The chairman and most of the committee then refuse to honor the pledge of allegiance. This took place at the NJ Senate gun control hearings in Trenton on April 30, 2013. People in the audience were wearing NRA caps which I am sure was not lost on the Senate committee members. The officers from the court who were harassing the people who attended at the end of the clip looked from behind like jack booted Nazi enforcers.”
    The anger in the room was palpable, as was the frustration.
    Freedom going out of style?
    At a separate protest, civil rights activist Adam Kokesh – who has pre-announced an armed civil disobedience march on Washington D.C. on July 4th – was violently dragged from a “Smoke Down Prohibition” protest in Philadelphia over the weekend of May 18. Though in this video Kokesh, who is being dragged away from the event by police, has his hands up and is clearly not resisting arrest, that was the ultimate charge leveled against him:
    According to Adam Kokesh supporter “Brother Lucas,” Kokesh never even smoked pot during the protest, so his arrest is sending shockwaves across the liberty movement because it appears to be illegal and unjustified. The video seems to depict a lawless gang of badge-wearing thugs committing an act of kidnapping against someone merely exercising their free speech rights in a public forum.
    What is interesting – even encouraging, if you are lover of liberty – was the reaction of the crowd to Kokesh’s detention. As you can see in the video, demonstrators followed police to a barricade they reinforced after taking Kokesh through it. The crowd openly challenged officers and was visibly angry.
    These are scenes being repeated all around the country, and with increasing frequency, as more Americans tire of the soft tyranny being directed at them on a daily basis. Look for more unrest in the future.
    Delivered by The Daily Sheeple
    - See more at: Civil Disobedience Rising Across America as Citizens Fed up With Criminal Government | The Daily Sheeple
    ~Responsible people who understand that their personal protection is up to them, provide themselves with protection. Those that don't have only themselves to blame.~Proud NRA ~SAF~GoA Member~

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    On the subject of "testing" the cops.....

    Police "test" the public with bait cars and fake prostitutes as a way of catching those citizens who would break the law and many folks think that is admirable.

    Yet, when the public "tests" the cops with legal open carry as a way of catching those cops who would break the law some folks think that is just terrible.

    What is terrible is that there are folks who think it is Ok for the cops to "test" ordinary people but it is terrible for ordinary people to "test" the cops.

    The truth of the matter is quite simple. A law abiding man will not steal a car or pick up a prostitute and a law abiding cop will not hassle a citizen who is not breaking any laws. So the only one who fails the "test", cop or citizen, is a person who breaks the law.

    And those who break the law are criminals.... regardless of what clothes they wear.
    Bikenut here's what my pappy always told me; Locks and Laws only keep honest people honest, everyone else will do what the dam well want too.
    I'd rather be a Conservative Nutjob. Than a Liberal with NO Nuts & NO Job

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