What to say to an open carry visitor at church? - Page 13
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Thread: What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    So does your Second amendment right trump my right as a property owner? Can I come to your house and start spewing profanity in front of your wife and kids? I mean after all that is my First Amendment Right correct? Can I walk into your house with out an invitation? I mean I have a right to free travel correct?
    No, and your argument is really ignorant. Don't come at me comparing things that aren't related. So to you carrying a gun in public is equivalent to spewing profanity in front of children? Seems a little asinine to me. Children are exposed to many things (TV, video games) much worse than me with a gun on my hip

    The difference between my house and your church is that my house isn't open to the public. When you open your property to the public you are entering a different realm of private vs. public property. Do you require every person get permission before they can park their cars or enter the building?

    All I'm saying is you allow me to come onto your property to exercise my 1A but deny me my 2A? Doesn't make a lot of sense. But then again trying to "debate" with you has proven useless so far.

    I again ask: Who are you to modify my 2A right?
    "It is not malicious acts that will do us in but the appalling silence and indifference of good people. All that is needed for evil to run rampant is for good women and men to do nothing." -MLK Jr Current Carry: Ruger SR40c

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    I thought I was joking about open carry being the 8th deadly sin...but you actually think open carrying is a sin?
    No, not at all the sin is in the rebellion against the authority that (presumably) God placed over that body of believers. The OP didn’t present any extra Biblical teaching, he didn’t espouse any heresy and he didn’t depart from sound doctrine. All he did was present a church rule that you didn’t like. If the ability to open carry in church is an absolute deal breaker for you then you need to find a church that allows it rather than openly defy a church that doesn’t. Especially when it appears that the majority of his congregation agrees with his decision (based on the fact that he didn’t mention any instances of dissension)

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    The more you stereotype all open carries, which you did right off the get go, the easier it is to stereotype all Christians that go to your church. What I see here, is one person who represents a church of judgmental hypocritical Christians trying to make themselves feel better, and feels his terms are somehow godly compared to his subservient peons below him.
    And short of dumping our church policy to accommodate you nothing is going to change that opinion and we aren’t going to do that. So impasse; feel free to find a church that works for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    I didn't realize there were prerequisites before I'm allowed to God...Oh wait there aren't..that's just in man's church.
    There absolutely are prerequisites before you are allowed to God. Belief is a prerequisite; repentance is a prerequisite departure from inequity is a prerequisite submission to God, there is others.
    You may want to study your Bible God has been known to kill people for worshiping him in ways that he hasn’t ordained

    The Profane Fire of Nadab and Abihu Leviticus 10
    10 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  4. #123
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    I feel that the substance of my post is being ignored here and Iíve actually felt that through out most of this thread.

    I donít object to open carry as such, I donít think itís appropriate in all venues but I donít object to it.

    Of all the places where I might say that open carry is inappropriate the primary one would be on any private property where the owner forbids it.
    If you truly object to the property ownerís policy then go elsewhere. Iím OK with that and Iím sure my church would be too. What wouldnít be OK is for you to walk into our church and demand that they change policy to accommodate you.

    I wish you could explain this in a way that I understand but given the choice of moving down the road to a place where they share your belief that open carry in church is cool or staying at my church where theyíve asked you not to and demanding that we change to suit you; How am I not supposed to think youíre trying to disrupt my church? And more importantly why should I allow it?

    Ultimately what Iím getting from this thread isnít so much that is about open carry as it is about a bunch of folks that have no use for Christians venting their spleens
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    No, not at all the sin is in the rebellion against the authority that (presumably) God placed over that body of believers. The OP didn’t present any extra Biblical teaching, he didn’t espouse any heresy and he didn’t depart from sound doctrine. All he did was present a church rule that you didn’t like. If the ability to open carry in church is an absolute deal breaker for you then you need to find a church that allows it rather than openly defy a church that doesn’t. Especially when it appears that the majority of his congregation agrees with his decision (based on the fact that he didn’t mention any instances of dissension)



    And short of dumping our church policy to accommodate you nothing is going to change that opinion and we aren’t going to do that. So impasse; feel free to find a church that works for you.



    There absolutely are prerequisites before you are allowed to God. Belief is a prerequisite; repentance is a prerequisite departure from inequity is a prerequisite submission to God, there is others.
    You may want to study your Bible God has been known to kill people for worshiping him in ways that he hasn’t ordained
    I can only speak for myself, but I have not read any reply where someone has said they would openly rebel and argue in church during it's service. That was all speculation and projection on your part. It seems, you have a problem with those who support open carry and the 2A when they say, "I WOULD go to a different church because 1) Your church policy is anti gun 2) Your anti gun policy makes no sense 3) etc etc."

    No church, in the real sense of church, has ever taught me that we must repent and believe before a non believer were allowed to come in to the church and come to God. How else are sinners supposed to have access to help. Sure, to access heaven for eternity we need to believe and repent, but to come to God in this life? Bologna! Shouldn't it be illegal for Christians to go out and find sinners to help? After all, they are threatening the lives of those sinners, if the sinners haven't repented or started to believe and they are coming to God through that missionary. It's no wonder the establishment of church is so widely feared because of the belief that there are so many things that need to be done BEFORE you are allowed in church. Reminds me of all those people that feel they need to get in better shape before going to the gym...doesn't make ANY sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I feel that the substance of my post is being ignored here and I’ve actually felt that through out most of this thread.

    I don’t object to open carry as such, I don’t think it’s appropriate in all venues but I don’t object to it. This is like saying, "I'm not a racist towards Blacks, but I don't think it's appropriate for them to be in all venues but I'm not a racist against blacks." Just because you say you don't object to open carry, doesn't mean your actions to deny open carry aren't objecting. Just because Rachael Jeantel said Trayvon wasn't a racist, doesn't make "creepy ass cracker" not racist. I had a professor at OS say she wasn't a feminist, and then went on for 3 months about how America is falling apart due to white males, as if her denial being a feminist made it okay.

    Of all the places where I might say that open carry is inappropriate the primary one would be on any private property where the owner forbids it.
    If you truly object to the property owner’s policy then go elsewhere. I’m OK with that and I’m sure my church would be too. What wouldn’t be OK is for you to walk into our church and demand that they change policy to accommodate you. Again, is there anyone who said they would demand that?

    I wish you could explain this in a way that I understand but given the choice of moving down the road to a place where they share your belief that open carry in church is cool or staying at my church where they’ve asked you not to and demanding that we change to suit you; How am I not supposed to think you’re trying to disrupt my church? And more importantly why should I allow it?

    Ultimately what I’m getting from this thread isn’t so much that is about open carry as it is about a bunch of folks that have no use for Christians venting their spleens
    Just like in the other thread, you feel the instructor is being pompous and elitist. I feel you and your church are the same. What I am not doing in the other thread, is saying you and your entire church are disrupting his class and demanding he take down his top 10 failures. This thread on the other had, is filled with speculation and projection of what COULD happen if one of us in this thread were to unknowingly walk into your church.
    ďOne of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.Ē Ė Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. #125
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    I would like to here just one of you address this concept that because Jesus associated with sinners that the church is some how not allowed to set standards for their services. What I’m getting is that because Jesus associated with sinners all behavior is acceptable in the church.

    What I’m hearing here is that even though the Bible gives a clear standard for congregational worship and even though Jesus Himself specifically addressed removing a believer from fellowship for refusal to repent from known sin , I’m a hypocrite if I remove a disruptor from my congregation?

    A few of the “judgmental” examples I threw out were a drunk disrupting the service by yelling at the top of his lungs when I stated that it made more sense to remove the one guy from the service so the rest of the congregation could get something from the message I was told that that was just “man judging man”

    Really? In your church (that you never attend) you’d show the love of Jesus by letting the guy disrupt the service?
    Answer me that one please


    In 1st Corinthians Chapter 5 God (speaking through Paul) states very clearly that those who continue in a pattern of willful sin are to be removed form the congregation.

    9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.
    So is removing a person who refuses to adhere to sound doctrine Scriptural or not? If the church does put someone out on these grounds are they hypocrites?

    More specifically, when my church removed the senior Pastor from office for flagrant misconduct were we hypocrites?
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  7. #126
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    To Cypher...

    I said it many times before... it is YOUR church. YOUR church has the private property right to do what ever it wishes that is legal on/in that property.

    Now... get this...

    Just because YOU think YOUR church is the end all be all that has got it right as to how the entire world needs to meet the criteria YOUR church considers necessary (and chooses scripture to justify that belief) to come to God and worship Him.... doesn't mean everyone MUST adhere or agree to what your church believes.

    But I will give you credit... you have repeatedly said (and if you will allow me ... I'll paraphrase because you haven't used these exact words) that anyone who disagrees with the ministry, the teachings, the beliefs, and the policies, of your church is free to not attend your church.

    Well several people have stated that because of your church's, minstries, beliefs, and policies, (as stated by you) that they would not attend your church. I personally have the opinion that I would not attend your church if doing so would save my physical live on this earth. That is how far away from God that I personally think your church is.... and every post you make only serves to strengthen that opinion.

    So... why are you still trying to defend your church?

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    So... why are you still trying to defend your church?
    I'm not trying to defend my church, I'm trying to get you guys to defend your assertations that setting standards for worship and removing people from fellowship is not what Jesus would do.

    I'd also like you personally to back up your statement that my post outlining clear Scriptural principles for maintaining order in the church was "man judging man"

    I've stated over and over again that if any of you had a Scriptural precedent disputing me I would be open to hearing it.

    And not a one of you has stepped up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    That is how far away from God that I personally think your church is...?
    You are certainly welcom to present Scriptural evidence to support your claim, I'll wait
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  9. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    To Cypher...

    I said it many times before... it is YOUR church. YOUR church has the private property right to do what ever it wishes that is legal on/in that property.

    Now... get this...

    Just because YOU think YOUR church is the end all be all that has got it right as to how the entire world needs to meet the criteria YOUR church considers necessary (and chooses scripture to justify that belief) to come to God and worship Him.... doesn't mean everyone MUST adhere or agree to what your church believes.

    But I will give you credit... you have repeatedly said (and if you will allow me ... I'll paraphrase because you haven't used these exact words) that anyone who disagrees with the ministry, the teachings, the beliefs, and the policies, of your church is free to not attend your church.

    Well several people have stated that because of your church's, minstries, beliefs, and policies, (as stated by you) that they would not attend your church. I personally have the opinion that I would not attend your church if doing so would save my physical live on this earth. That is how far away from God that I personally think your church is.... and every post you make only serves to strengthen that opinion.

    So... why are you still trying to defend your church?
    If scripture does justify the belief or practice then the church is scripturaly sound. And as with any church, if you don't agree with the ministry, the teachings, the beliefs, and the policies, feel free to not attend said church. DUH. So far the only thing far away from God here are the secular and those ignorant of scripture pertaining to the assembly.
    ~ GOD HATES RELIGION ~

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm not trying to defend my church, I'm trying to get you guys to defend your assertations that setting standards for worship and removing people from fellowship is not what Jesus would do.

    I'd also like you personally to back up your statement that my post outlining clear Scriptural principles for maintaining order in the church was "man judging man"

    I've stated over and over again that if any of you had a Scriptural precedent disputing me I would be open to hearing it.

    And not a one of you has stepped up



    You are certainly welcom to present Scriptural evidence to support your claim, I'll wait
    Choose your scripture... and then spin it... as any good politician would do..

    Friend... it is YOUR church... believe what you will in YOUR church..

    And stop trying to demand others show how YOUR church doesn't fit the beliefs of others.

    Learn one thing... if nothing else...

    You and YOUR church are entitled to YOUR beliefs... and you can pick and choose what scripture you wish to bolster those beliefs...(some folks actually look to the context of scripture instead of just taking them as they are worded if those scripture happens to agree with their beliefs... but.. be that as it may) yet your beliefs are no less valid than the beliefs of any other church..

    If YOUR beliefs were the end all/be all... then.. there would not be any need for any other churches...

    Or is that the core message you wish to convey?

    But then... there is no shortage of churches that want folks to believe that they are the one true church and there is no need for any other church.... since all other churches have just got it wrong... and they can find scripture to prove it too...........

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I'm not trying to defend my church, I'm trying to get you guys to defend your assertations that setting standards for worship and removing people from fellowship is not what Jesus would do.

    I'd also like you personally to back up your statement that my post outlining clear Scriptural principles for maintaining order in the church was "man judging man"

    I've stated over and over again that if any of you had a Scriptural precedent disputing me I would be open to hearing it.

    And not a one of you has stepped up



    You are certainly welcom to present Scriptural evidence to support your claim, I'll wait
    Still waiting.
    ~ GOD HATES RELIGION ~

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