What to say to an open carry visitor at church? - Page 18
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Thread: What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanwriter View Post
    I carry concealed every day, but I wouldn't dream of carrying in a church, any more than I could wear a hat in church. Scriptures aside, it just wouldn't feel right to bring a gun into the House of God. That's just me.
    If you truly believe in your heart that God has called you to be unarmed in church I wouldn’t want to step in the way of that; you do what you believe god has called you to but as I have mentioned numerous times in this thread I can tell you from personal experience that God doesn’t put some sacred vault of protection around the church. Bad people see churches as weak, easy targets and they act on that and barring direct leading from God I will never again walk into a church unarmed.
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    NAVY can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he felt the same way I did when people were correlating the actions of a sinner and open carrying in the same train of thought.
    It was the open carriers that made the Jesus hung out with prostitutes so I can open carry in church metaphor first. Not (I was going to say the concealed carriers but really it was) me

    My objection to the analogy has been and remains that people use it to deny that there is a clearly defined place in Scripture for discipline with in the church and removal of those who refuse to come under that discipline from the church.

    I also object to the use of this metaphor to excuse people who come into the church but continue to wallow in their sin
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  4. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Romans 14: Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

    So, it would seem that those who are "disturbed" by the person openly carrying a firearm (not doing anything else "out of the ordinary", just carrying a handgun in a holster on their belt) are the ones that Paul says are weak in faith. So - I must ask - sure, Romans 14:21 says not to eat meat around my brothers who are "weak in faith" and their faith still tells them that eating meat is a sin. But what are you doing to attempt to strengthen their faith? And, Romans 14 is talking about what some people consider to be "sinful" and avoided, is anyone that is "disturbed" by the firearm also claiming it to be sinful?

    And then I have to ask this. In verse 13 Paul says, "13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another." and yet wasn't that EXACTLY what he did in verse one when he said those that ate vegetables only were weak in faith?
    It's not cause and effect. If Paul had said "...another, whose hair is brown, eats only vegetables..." it wouldn't indicate that the guy's hair was brown BECAUSE he ate only vegetables, it would merely identify the vegetarian.
    Lewis - NRA Life - Oregon Firearms Federation - National Assoc. for Gun Rights

    Gun control is NOT about guns, it's about CONTROL.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    I don't believe what you state there has been in question or is a matter of dispute.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Here's the thing, Cypher. Open carrying a firearm is not a sin. And the only people it disrupts are the people that choose to be disrupted by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    I don't believe what you state there has been in question or is a matter of dispute.
    Whenever someone is "upset" by someone else open carrying, there is always going to be faction of people, even among the "pro-gun" community, who will say it is the person's fault for openly carrying the firearm when concealed was an option. They will say that the proper answer is just to conceal to gun so as not to upset the weak of heart.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. #175
    Our pastor is also ardent in his defense that we not open carry and I do not have a problem with that. I do not want to be a distraction to others during worship. We probably have 10 or more that carry concealed, of course because of threats we have an officer on staff at all times thus we inform our pastor that we will be carrying concealed so at minimum he knows. I only assume he lets the police officer know, but then again, you cannot tell any of us that carry.

    I do agree that if your church is not posted concerning OC and CC, then it should probably be to alleviate issues in the beginning.

    #Ilovepocketpistols

  7. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    It was the open carriers that made the Jesus hung out with prostitutes so I can open carry in church metaphor first. Not (I was going to say the concealed carriers but really it was) me

    My objection to the analogy has been and remains that people use it to deny that there is a clearly defined place in Scripture for discipline with in the church and removal of those who refuse to come under that discipline from the church.

    I also object to the use of this metaphor to excuse people who come into the church but continue to wallow in their sin
    Yes an open carrier made that first metaphor, that open carrier wasn't me, so...what?

    I put your church and the op's church "discipline" in the same category as the Brady campaign agenda. Projection of fear of an inanimate object, based on no real world substance.

    In fact, if the op comes back, I'm sure he could find better ways to ban firearms from his church by going to the Brady campaign website.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. Well said, Cypher. Just to add to my first post, 1. I always carry in church but only concealed 2. There are enough off duty Leos in my congregation that assume the responsibility for any "police action" and want to be sure, for safety reasons (as well as liability) I would stand down in a situation obviously under their control. 3. There are smaller prayer and other services that are lacking "official" security and I wouldn't hesitate to act under those circumstances. Finally, I feel there is a responsibility to do things in church "decently and in order" under the direction of the man you consider to be your pastor. I consider my entire church building a sanctuary. Keep your arms with you but leave your government outside along with your secular opinions. I come to praise and worship.

  9. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanwriter View Post
    I carry concealed every day, but I wouldn't dream of carrying in a church, any more than I could wear a hat in church. Scriptures aside, it just wouldn't feel right to bring a gun into the House of God. That's just me.

    As for placing a security guy behind the man with the gun, I think that makes sense. It's not profiling; it's situational awareness. Given that open carry in church is unusual at best, a man with a gun is likely there to call attention to the weapon. I respect his right to OC, but I also respect the rights of others to doubt his motivations.
    You may want to check out this blog; as well as a few more resources.

    http://www.securityatchurch.com/


    Churches are just as dangerous as the mall or any other public place. In fact, as we get closer to the end times the Bible guarantees that the church will suffer greater dangers & persecution.

    We have several leo members that OC at church. We also have 30-50 armed CC'ers at any given service or event. If you & the leadership of the church really understood the responsibility you have as "your brothers keeper" and the responsibility you have to care for the flock (even as a layman), I don't think you would see any problem in being armed at church.

    I used to feel the same way you do because God has protected me from GREAT dangers all of my life. But, I have learned about the responsibility I have to protect my family to the fullest of my ability. (That includes my church family!)

    IMHO; if you have the opportunity and it is legal to carry at your church you should; because we do have a responsibility beyond ourselves.

    -
    “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” —JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST

  10. #179
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    I don’t think every church is meant to be a fit for every believer. I don’t even think that every church is meant to be an exact fit for every believer, if you’re going to attend any church at all (and the Bible makes it quite clear that believers are to be involved in a local body) you are going to have to compromise.

    I don’t agree with my Pastor on every issue. Based on Jude 1:9 he believes that it’s not a believer’s place to rebuke Satan but to ask the Lord to rebuke him for us. Based on Mark 16: 17 I believe it is absolutely a believer’s place to rebuke demons (I doubt very seriously that I even show up on Satan’s radar). As I don’t see this as a major doctrinal point of division I generally note it and remind myself that I disagree every time he says it and I listen to the rest of the message.

    Similarly, I don’t see open carry as some huge doctrinal issue, I might if I was into it but I’m not so I don’t. If I came to a church that I agreed with in most points accept that one and the church felt like a fit and most importantly I believe that this was the church that God wanted me in I’d cover it up or even leave it in the car for that hour and a half. I’ll even go so far as to say that if I was certain that a given church was God’s choice for me and they were posted no weapons period I’d honor it. I’d leave a church over teaching baptism or a doctrine of works as a requirement for salvation before I’d leave one over whether or not I can carry a gun.

    Having said all that I’ll say again that if your relationship with a given church starts with a fundamental disagreement that is that serious to you I’d advise you to find a different church but if I were to start every relationship with any church with that fundamental of a disagreement I’d take a very close look at me.
    If you and I have a problem it’s a you and I problem but if you and I. you and she, you and he and you and them have a problem it’s a you problem
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  11. well to all you scripture quoting Holly'er then thou, anti freedom types on here

    there is an old saying here "if you took the money and P*S*Y out of the church, all the preachers would quit"

    very true statement

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