What to say to an open carry visitor at church? - Page 25
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Thread: What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I want to be clear that it’s not the open carry I’m against it’s the open defiance of church policy on an issue the Bible is silent about that I have a problem with.

    The Bible says nothing one way or the other about open carry so that issue is up to the individual church. If there was a church that opted to allow open carry that would be fine too (even if I personally believe that focus would end up on the open carry and not on the Cross). What I wouldn’t do though is go to your open carry church and demand that you all cover up and do it my way.

    Now if on the other hand there was a clear Scriptural precedent for open carry and the (individual) church said “No.” that would be a problem.
    I used to attend a Pentecostal church that thought speaking in tongues in the assembly was fine even though the Bible clearly admonishes against it , to the point that it says if you do it and an unbeliever walks into the church while you're doing it he’s going to think you’re nuts and leave.

    In a situation like that where I could point to Scripture and say “No this behavior is wrong.” I’d absolutely (and did) leave the church over it. But in a situation where I can’t back my decision with Scripture I stay where I believe God planted me, to the point that if I walked into church on Sunday and they told me the new policy is no guns period I’d disarm
    Can you please provide a scripture reference for the comment in bold? (Please make sure your reference is in context.)

    Thanks

    I might suggest you study 1 Cor 14 a little more. Tongues, prophecy nor any other Gifts of the SPIRIT are forbidden in public assembly. However, order & clarity in the use of those gifts is what the Bible does teach.


    -
    “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” —JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST

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  3. #242
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    My mistake I wasn’t as clear as I might have been. The church in question encouraged the entire congregation to speak in tongues at once in the assembly

    1st Corinthians 14:22-23
    22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
    Tongues with an interpretation is absolutely acceptable in the assembly

    1st Corinthians 14:27-2827 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  4. #243
    As the Shepard of your flock you are in the perfect will of God who ordained you as the leader to permit cc only.

    If you find that oc distracts from praise, worship or the homily then that distraction is one against God's perfect will.


    For those who would leave simply because they can't oc and refuse to cc on principle I question their commitment to the Body of Christ and submission to His will over their own desire and will.
    The approval of men is expensive, but the love of God is free...Guns and religion are a great mix!!!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by TruckTurner68 View Post
    As the Shepard of your flock you are in the perfect will of God who ordained you as the leader to permit cc only.

    If you find that oc distracts from praise, worship or the homily then that distraction is one against God's perfect will.


    For those who would leave simply because they can't oc and refuse to cc on principle I question their commitment to the Body of Christ and submission to His will over their own desire and will.
    I've got a question to ask you and Cypher. Who do you think you are to question my commitment to the Body of Christ?!? You know what... let's look at it this way. It is of so much importance that you can all get together and worship with people of like mind that you would exclude someone who doesn't meet your standards of dress so that you can continue to worship with people of like mind without distraction. So, why is it, that if I go somewhere else, to another church, that won't discriminate against me for the object that I am wearing, so that I can worship with others of like mind as myself then I am somehow less committed to the body of Christ and his will than you just because I have the desire to do exactly what you are doing?!!!!! Your two churches are not the only "right" churches out there. You want a no visible firearms service because it will help keep everybody as "one family of like mind" that's fine. I want a church family that accepts me, without regard to the object on my belt, and I will simply seek a church family that does that. Jesus says judge not lest you be judged yourselves, so I wonder if Christ himself is questioning your commitment in the same way that you judge ours for desiring to attend a church where people think and act more like we do.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Again, when someone tries to shoot up your church and you respond as well as or better than we did, then you come tell us how to secure our church.
    And this is where your argument loses all credibility. Your church's policy provides exactly zero added security by only banning OC. It's not a security policy at all, it's a policy that promotes a false sense of security for those parishioners who have no clue that probably hundreds of guns are present at any of your regular services. I believe you said earlier that your security team alone is in the 100 member range, most, if not all, of them armed, right? Plus all the faithful who are CC'ing, not only with the pastors' and/or head of security's blessings, but with no scrutiny whatsoever by anyone imposed upon them, whether a newcomer or long-time member. What "security" for the congregation does such pretzel logic provide?

    Clearly, it is a policy of outright bigotry, not security.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Clearly, it is a policy of outright bigotry, not security.

    Blues
    And statements of theirs like "We question your commitment to the body of Christ and his will" provide further evidence of that. I believe Jesus commanded us to shake the dust of our boots when we left a place we were not accepted at?
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And statements of theirs like "We question your commitment to the body of Christ and his will" provide further evidence of that. I believe Jesus commanded us to shake the dust of our boots when we left a place we were not accepted at?
    I never made any statement questioning your commitment to Christ. I did call into question what I see as a rebellious attitude and I did point out that you are stiff necked if you insist that an entire church change to suit you. I’ll go further and state that Scripture tells us we will know them by their fruits but I never made any statement questioning your commitment to Christ
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I never made any statement questioning your commitment to Christ. I did call into question what I see as a rebellious attitude and I did point out that you are stiff necked if you insist that an entire church change to suit you. I’ll go further and state that Scripture tells us we will know them by their fruits but I never made any statement questioning your commitment to Christ
    Nobody is asking you to change anything. All we are doing is pointing out the fallacy of your arguments as to why it's OK for the stranger to conceal carry in your church vice open carry. You would actually get less comment from us if you just flat out banned guns in your church, PERIOD. Here's why:

    1. Open carry causes a distraction to some people. As a stranger walking through the doors, if 90% of those same people knew that I was carrying a concealed firearm, I'm willing to wager they would be equally "distracted" having that knowledge alone. You aren't considering their real feelings (more than likely) that they aren't distracted at the sight of the stranger carrying the gun, they are distracted by the knowledge that the person has the gun at all. But you don't find anything deceitful at all by just saying, "If you just hide your gun from them, they won't know any better, and it will be OK."

    2. Security reasons. What you saying is that the stranger carrying the gun is less likely to be someone who is going to attack the church if they just hide it.

    But we will go back and forth like this until Christ returns. We have the spirit of rebellion, and your the reasons for your policies just continue to make no sense. #1 above would make a lot more sense if you just banned all guns, concealed or not. And if you used "security" as a reason to ban the possession of all firearms - then at least you would not be continuing to imply that the person who hides their gun is less dangerous than the person who wears their gun in the exactly the same way - only visible.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  10. #249
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    I haven't seen any sign of a rebellious attitude with comments here. But, what I have seen hypocrisy (CC is acceptable. But you aren't welcome if you OC. We welcome firearms - But, only if they are hidden, etc)

    This attitude also indicates to me that someone really doesn't understand what the love of Christ is all about. Love and acceptance that is based on "man-made" rules & conditions is NOT love at all. I have also seen signs of prideful arrogance and FEAR based ignorance. (This ALL stems from the "spirit" of FEAR!)

    I do understand that your church went through something terrifying. But, you have let one instance bring a "spirit of fear" into your church. I have been counseling church leaders for the past 25 years. If I could speak to your leadership, I would should suggest they seriously re-evaluate policy and do some self examination. The "spirit of fear" will lead us to make some irrational & stupid decisions. (IE; Concealed guns are welcome, but OC is too scary.)

    The "spirit of fear" will also plant seeds of division. (IE; CC'ers are fine- OC'ers are disruptive.)

    In reality, you and your church seems "NOT" to be operating under divine wisdom. But, your church leaders seem to be operating under the "spirit of FEAR"; which as led to irrational & nonsensical rules & policy. This in turn, has led the church down the road to a false sense of righteousness and a false LOVE based on "conditional" actions & behaviors that have NO basis in biblical teachings.

    I would strongly suggest that you and your churches leaders spend a LOT of time searching out what type of spiritual "root" you have let grow in your church.

    Romans 12:3 (NKJV)
    3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment ....

    Romans 12:9-11 (NKJV)
    9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
    10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
    11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

    1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (NKJV)
    1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
    2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
    4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
    5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
    6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
    7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
    8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
    9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    -
    “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” —JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST

  11. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I've got a question to ask you and Cypher. Who do you think you are to question my commitment to the Body of Christ?!? You know what... let's look at it this way. It is of so much importance that you can all get together and worship with people of like mind that you would exclude someone who doesn't meet your standards of dress so that you can continue to worship with people of like mind without distraction. So, why is it, that if I go somewhere else, to another church, that won't discriminate against me for the object that I am wearing, so that I can worship with others of like mind as myself then I am somehow less committed to the body of Christ and his will than you just because I have the desire to do exactly what you are doing?!!!!! Your two churches are not the only "right" churches out there. You want a no visible firearms service because it will help keep everybody as "one family of like mind" that's fine. I want a church family that accepts me, without regard to the object on my belt, and I will simply seek a church family that does that. Jesus says judge not lest you be judged yourselves, so I wonder if Christ himself is questioning your commitment in the same way that you judge ours for desiring to attend a church where people think and act more like we do.
    You make the assumption that you are of like mind. I think that assumption is suspect.

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