What to say to an open carry visitor at church? - Page 4
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Thread: What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

  1. #31
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    Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Quote Originally Posted by caubry89 View Post
    This bothers me. You are on a gun forum yet you discriminate and profile a man exercising his 2A rights for carrying a weapon by placing security around him? To me that is no better then the anti's saying all guns are bad and people who own them are bad.
    Iím not a Pastor but I am a church elder and I profile people that walk into my church every Sunday and if that offends you Iím sorry but it is what it is.

    The church is called to be welcoming not foolish and as mentioned above people walk into to churches with the specific intent of disrupting the church every day of the year.

    If you read your Bible youíll find that most people find the Gospel extremely offensive because it calls out their sin and they donít like it. Iíve seen homosexuals walk into church sit down and start making out just to offend the congregation and Iíve seen people stand up in the middle of the sermon and tell the church that they were Godís angel sent to put this church back on the narrow way. As a result if I see anything out of the ordinary in church I pay it strict attention.

    There are also people out there that perceive Christians as weak and feel that they can come to the church and intimidate the congregation and maybe get a handout then leave. Iíve had my experiences with them as well.

    Each church is there to be the church God called it to be and to serve the most people it can not to accommodate you. If you feel that open carry should be allowed in church then either find or found one that allows it but donít walk into a church that doesnít and demand that they change to suit you.

    I go to a very large church; we were actually in the news because of a shooting that happened on our campus a few years back that was stopped by an armed parishioner. As a result our congregation is a little sensitive to guns in church. They also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that that our security ministry volunteers are armed.

    Because we draw from a large pool of volunteers our security team is probably bigger than some of your congregations. As a result you could probably walk into my church open carrying 100 times and I could put a different plainclothes volunteer right behind your seat every time and youíd never know thatís what I did. Although the reality is that youíd do it once and then after service you would be invited back with a concealed weapon, no weapon or not at all.
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.



    Iím not a Pastor but I am a church elder and I profile people that walk into my church every Sunday and if that offends you Iím sorry but it is what it is.

    The church is called to be welcoming not foolish and as mentioned above people walk into to churches with the specific intent of disrupting the church every day of the year.

    If you read your Bible youíll find that most people find the Gospel extremely offensive because it calls out their sin and they donít like it. Iíve seen homosexuals walk into church sit down and start making out just to offend the congregation and Iíve seen people stand up in the middle of the sermon and tell the church that they were Godís angel sent to put this church back on the narrow way. As a result if I see anything out of the ordinary in church I pay it strict attention.

    There are also people out there that perceive Christians as weak and feel that they can come to the church and intimidate the congregation and maybe get a handout then leave. Iíve had my experiences with them as well.

    Each church is there to be the church God called it to be and to serve the most people it can not to accommodate you. If you feel that open carry should be allowed in church then either find or found one that allows it but donít walk into a church that doesnít and demand that they change to suit you.

    I go to a very large church; we were actually in the news because of a shooting that happened on our campus a few years back that was stopped by an armed parishioner. As a result our congregation is a little sensitive to guns in church. They also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that that our security ministry volunteers are armed.

    Because we draw from a large pool of volunteers our security team is probably bigger than some of your congregations. As a result you could probably walk into my church open carrying 100 times and I could put a different plainclothes volunteer right behind your seat every time and youíd never know thatís what I did. Although the reality is that youíd do it once and then after service you would be invited back with a concealed weapon, no weapon or not at all.
    I have no problem being asked to conceal my weapon not that I would need to as it always is concealed. What I have a problem with is the placing of security. That to me is no different than walking into the local WM and being followed by security for just carrying a weapon. How can we as armed citizens get the anti's to trust someone legally carrying a weapon when we don't trust our own?

    Sent from my SCH-I405 using USA Carry mobile app

  4. #33
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    To the OP....

    Yes the church has the private property right to ban guns... OC or CC.. as the church wishes. I support that right for any and all private property including churches. I don't think banning guns is wise but I still support the right to do it.

    But, I would think (my personal opinion worth exactly nothing) that as a Pastor you have a major personal faith based question to ask yourself....

    Is your purpose to lead your congregation and any visitors to God or is your purpose to allow your congregation to decree who will be "allowed" to be lead to God within the 4 walls of that building where people are supposed to be worshiping God?

    Because it appears to me that OC'ing visitors isn't the real issue... the real issue is whether your church, that includes you and the congregation, exists for the purpose of leading folks to God ............ or not.

    Because God accepts the lowest of the low, the most sinful of the sinners, the rich and the poor, the nice and the nasty, those who are wearing guns and those who are not.... and God accepts all of us with open arms and a heart filled with love.... and I just can't imagine God telling anyone that He will love them but first they have to cover up their gun.

    So... to all and sundry....

    If God were standing right there in front of you at this very moment (and He actually is with you at all times) do you really think He would say:

    "I love you my child! Come to me so I can hug you. Oh wait... first you have to cover up your gun or put it in the car... then I'll love you."

    More of my very firm personal opinion........

    Any church that discriminates against individuals or turns away another of God's children for any reason based upon the prejudices and fears of the congregation is NOT following God.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by farsidefan1 View Post
    Open carry is only distracting because folks are not used to it. If you allow open carry or even encourage it then it will no longer be unusual therefore not distracting. Just a learning curve.
    Well said.

    It's the same problem a church will face when upgrading their sound system (trust me on this one)... The main speakers are in some hidden cavity based on some previous engineers bright ideas, and the sound sucks. Then, they realize the problem and lower the speakers into plain view. They don't block anyone's view, they're just in view. People are not used to them -- they will complain about how ugly it is -- it should be a sin to let those things be in here like that. However, in two to three weeks, those people will realize that their complaining doesn't do anything and they'll stop noticing the speakers. They'll stop realizing how distracting they are.

    Now imagine telling the sound guy that he can't come in here with those, to keep them hidden. Is that not a distraction to him now? If I were the sound guy and was told to conceal my speakers -- I'd leave. If you don't want me to do my best and give my all to the cause, then I'm not where I need to be.

    In my opinion, this relates directly to the gun situation. Someone who openly carries his firearm is generally going to be one of the easiest people to get along with, in my experience. They are not the criminal -- criminals hide things. Of course, you understand I'm not calling concealed carriers criminals, nor and I saying that they're "bad" or "worse" than people who prefer to open carry. I'm simply stating that asking an open carrier (member or not) to conceal is distracting to them, far more than to the rest of the congregation.

  6. #35
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    The issue that I have with most of the responses I’ve read in this thread so far is that the OP hasn’t asked anyone to validate his policy of banning open carry from his church, that decision has already been made. All he’s asking for is suggestions on how to implement it.

    It’s been my experience that the people who show up at a church and begin by violating church policy and then call the church bigoted or prejudiced for not changing that policy to suit them are generally the ones who are there to disrupt.

    If you truly believe that God has placed you in a given church then it follows that you believe that He has placed the Pastor of that church in a position of spiritual authority over you and that except in cases of clear departure from Scriptural truth or flagrant Pastoral misconduct he is to be obeyed. If you truly disagree with the churches’ policy then you’re better off finding a church that you agree with than trying to bend the church you’re in to your will.

    Similarly, I haven’t asked for anyone’s validation of my church’s policy of placing armed plain clothes security in close proximately to anyone who chooses to attend our services openly armed. When your church has an active shooter incident and handles is as well as or better than we did then you can tell us how to do it but not before.
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  7. Many thanks to all who replied. I suspected that my post would generate discussion of the policy, though was hopeful to stay focused on implementation. Some of my take-aways are:

    1) Post it (though I prefer to talk to people because that's how you get to know them).

    2) We need a comprehensive security plan (not that the OC policy has much to do with security).

    3) Host firearm safety courses so people don't freak out when the see a gun. I want people to be secure enough in Jesus that they pretty much don't freak out over anything.

    Appreciate the education you have provided.

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bing98507 View Post
    I pastor a church in a rural/suburban area of Washington state (OC legal). We have a policy prohibiting OC at our worship service (CC OK). If you were to visit our church for worship, what's the best way for me to inform you of the policy? Here's what is what I plan to say after personally welcoming you and exchanging names (not from the front, but one-to-one):

    "I am glad you have come to worship. We do not allow open carry in this building during worship because we have found that it distracts too many people. You may carry concealed if you have a permit or lock your gun in your car. I hope you will choose one of those options and stay."

    If you can comply, great. If not, I would ask you to leave.

    Thanks for the feedback. If I need to do this in the future, I would like to get it right.

    Rich
    Should work. I might feel a tad more welcome by you saying something like "We're glad that you have come to worship with us. We support our 2A right to bear arms and we certainly don't mind if you conceal carry during worship. In fact, we welcome and encourage permit holders to conceal carry in our house of worship. But, we have found that open carry during worship tends to distract too many people. Might I ask you to conceal your weapon when you attend services? Thanks, we do appreciate it. And welcome, again!" Sounds a bit friendlier to me, but perhaps I'm just nitpicking...
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  9. #38
    Hey, Bing. May I suggest your first step should be to have your church board formulate a policy that would be included in your constitution. This would cover any suggestion of bias toward a carrier. Second, rather than say "don't allow," you might use the phrase "Our policy is..." Also consider including in your constitution that carrying is limited to permitted carriers for insurance reasons. Checking with your insurance carrier to see if they have any qualifications would be a good idea before wording your statement. I hope this has helped. I am involved in services at our church, I carry concealed, and some of our folk know it. I wouldn't be surprised if others do also. We have implemented a locked door policy during services to discourage unwanted intrusions, with one door open and monitored and the rest posted with guidance to the open door. High crime area, thus the locks. We will be training a security force for ALL sorts of problems - fire, accident, weather (hurricane area) intrusion, etc., not just shootings. You might check out Christianity Today. They have a lot of good suggestions on security. Ask them about the recent webinar on guns in church. It is available for re-viewing online, worth your time. God bless.

  10. #39
    I really feel behind the curve after reading this thread. I reside in Ohio and churches are currently considered NO GUN ZONES under the law. There is legislation in the state house that would change that along with other NGZ that exist currently
    ~
    So I've never even considered carrying at church let alone open, which is how I carry better than 95% of the time. We can CC if we have written permission from the church which I have never inquired about. Have trouble swallowing having to ask the state for permission to begin with.
    ~
    That said, just post the facility and let go at that, why draw more attention to the situation than is necessary. Each personal intervention opens you to the possibility of an altercation that no one needs. If they choose to enter after posting then you have grounds to trespass them if needed.
    ~
    I would just be happy to be able under the law to CC at church without having to ask for EXTRA permission from people when my God gave me the right in the first place. Amen.
    I'd rather be a Conservative Nutjob. Than a Liberal with NO Nuts & NO Job

  11. #40
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    A church is a community. As such that community has every right to make their own rules, just like you can make your own rules at your house. If this particular community allows CC and disallows OC, then who are we to tell them otherwise?

    Bing, I liked your words. If I came to your church and you took me aside and were that cordial, I would gladly put my jacket on and sit down with you all.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

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