What to say to an open carry visitor at church? - Page 9
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Thread: What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    To be perfectly honest after reading this thread I think most of the people responding would be the very ones that I would consider disruptors if they showed up at my church. Nothing that I’ve read in this thread has given me reason to believe any thing other than that you open carry just to stir the pot (and to be clear I’m not talking about open carriers in general I’m talking about the group in this thread specifically) and if you did show up at my church open carrying you’d be doing it just to prove you can.

    Church policy is dictated by a church council and the Pastor as they believe they are directed by God. I (me personally) have input but not the final say. Be that as it may, nothing that I’ve read here has inclined me to walk into the next Church Council meeting and suggest we rethink our response to open carry in our church. If anything I’m more likely to walk in there and suggest that we make it policy that should it ever happen we make sure that TWO people approach him (preferably one a cop) and explain the policy and as soon as he starts disrupting the service to tell us what Jesus would do he be taken into custody and trespassed off the property.

    As I said earlier I consider most of you to be disruptors. Conversations with disruptors are pointless because they keep circling around to “the disruptor wants to do what the disruptor wants to do’ and they never get anywhere except for the disruptor keeps getting more wound up because he isn’t getting his way.

    So, let me end with this; we appreciate that you may or may not choose to worship with us someday however our church policy does forbid the open display of firearms in the building. If you find that you can’t abide by that policy then we invite you to worship in a church that more closely meets your needs.

    Good day

    And if you haven’t got it yet please let me be explicitly clear, I can’t speak for the rest of my church or the security team but the fact that you are armed is irrelevant to me except in as far as when I see you walk through the doors of my church I assume (and again nothing I’ve read here has changed my outlook) that you are doing so with the specific intent of causing a scene and disrupting the church and that is what I’m going to act on
    You, and the majority of main stream church goers, are the reason I stopped going to the establishment known as church.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighterchen View Post
    You, and the majority of main stream church goers, are the reason I stopped going to the establishment known as church.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    Don't give up on church all together. Ag (anti-gun) and AG (anti-GOD) Libtards have definitely infiltrated the church. The progressive libtard movement has weakened a LOT of churches in America. But, we still need people that are willing to help the rest of us in taking our churches BACK for Christ.

    I can't speak for churches in your area. But, we are making some headway here in the south. Even though, we can't legally OC here yet. Most churches in my area are very PRO 2am & pro gun. We just need to keep building our congregations and educating people. (You would be welcome here at my church.)


    -
    “Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.” —JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Does God turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, open carriers or concealed carriers, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who repent and accept Christ? Do churches turn away those bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, open carriers or concealed carriers, fornicators, adulterers, and murderers, denying them the opportunity to be led to God?

    My point is quite simple... God does not turn away anyone but churches do. And the reason churches turn people away is the congregation denying them the opportunity to be led to God? denying them the opportunity to be led to God?their church will have. And that is not following God...
    A building is not the church, a building is no more than a place to assemble for a worship service. The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all of His followers. Churches do not turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who accept Christ & Repent. (open carry still optional ) . No, churches do not deny people the opportunity to be led to God. Only God can judge & turn non-repentant sinners away from His Kingdom and into HELL. If anyone is turned away or reprimanded it's because the church is following God instructed doctrine. Like duh! Really?
    ~ GOD HATES RELIGION ~

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Don't give up on church all together. Ag (anti-gun) and AG (anti-GOD) Libtards have definitely infiltrated the church. The progressive libtard movement has weakened a LOT of churches in America. But, we still need people that are willing to help the rest of us in taking our churches BACK for Christ.

    I can't speak for churches in your area. But, we are making some headway here in the south. Even though, we can't legally OC here yet. Most churches in my area are very PRO 2am & pro gun. We just need to keep building our congregations and educating people. (You would be welcome here at my church.)


    -
    As Ringo just stated, I believe in a more intimate church, not the establishment Cypher is so proud of. But I thank you for the invite, and hope you win in your pursuit to get back your churches. If I'm ever in the south, I'll send you a message.

    Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
    “One of the illusions of life is that the present hour is not the critical, decisive one.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I’m curious how many of you that have a better plan on how to run the church I attend

    Number one, have a church of 20,000 some odd members (because clearly if you’re doing it better, you’re drawing more people)

    But what I really want to know is how many of you attend church regularly and if you do attend church how many of you open carry in church?

    And if not why not?
    Clearly you are doing what better? Preaching the gospel or entertaining?

    2 Timothy 4:3
    New International Version (NIV)


    "3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

    As far as a better security plan - quite simply I would be more concerned about the firearms that people are sneaking into your church concealed more than those worn openly on holsters on belts.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    I’m curious how many of you that have a better plan on how to run the church I attend

    Number one, have a church of 20,000 some odd members (because clearly if you’re doing it better, you’re drawing more people)

    But what I really want to know is how many of you attend church regularly and if you do attend church how many of you open carry in church?

    And if not why not?
    I do attend church regularly and I do carry every Sunday. My pastor and I have had conversations about it and he is glad that I do. In fact, I and a handful of others are trying to incorporate some added security measures for our church, but this is a delicate issue.

    For one, most of the church going folk don't see a need for added security measures. A true sheepdog does. Most of the congregation at my church would be aghast at anyone thinking of carrying a gun inside the house of the Lord, let alone openly carrying it. Out of respect for the congregation, and until they start realizing the evil deeds that do happen in the world and in some churches, I will respect the community that I worship with.

    We have already put feelers out to a number of the congregation regarding security measures. Most are anti-gun. It is not my mission to change their minds on this. Therefore, our small team trying to gain some added security to the church is, as I mentioned, a delicate task. We do not wish to be divisive with our church members. One conversation I had with a church member had them asking nervously, "Is there really a need for added security?". My reply, "We've heard nothing directly, but bad things do happen everywhere. We're just trying to prevent something here." It was obvious from his facial expression that this concept was foreign to him. I had another congregant, who thinks that nothing bad would happen in a church, state, "Someone would have to really be stupid to try to do something during a Sunday morning service with all those people." He's completely oblivious to the fact that with this attitude most of them are just sheep for the slaughter.

    The like-minded folk in this forum understand personal security, they understand the need to carry. Many other folk in the world do not, including many members at my church. A Sunday worship service is not, in my humble opinion, the proper place to force a 2nd Amendment conversation especially with those that disagree. I attend this church because of the Gospel that is preached not for Constitutional activism. These reasons I have provided are why I choose to carry concealed at church.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
    ~ Benjamin Franklin (maybe)

  8. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    A building is not the church, a building is no more than a place to assemble for a worship service. The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all of His followers. Churches do not turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who accept Christ & Repent. (open carry still optional ) . No, churches do not deny people the opportunity to be led to God. Only God can judge & turn non-repentant sinners away from His Kingdom and into HELL. If anyone is turned away or reprimanded it's because the church is following God instructed doctrine. Like duh! Really?
    Matthew 18:20
    For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

    So Ringo... I think you and I are actually on the same page in regards to our beliefs about what the real church is.

    But when I refer to "churches" in this discussion I am referring to those buildings (churches) filled with men (congregations) who judge their fellow man as unfit to be in their personal "good ole boy's club" and turn people away because they aren't "acceptable" for some reason or other while thinking they are such a good "church" because their attendance is in the thousands of folks who have not come together in God's name but came to watch the Sunday morning entertainment show so they can say that they went to "church" on Sunday.

    By the way.. to everyone reading this post....if that description above doesn't fit your church then I'm not talking about your church.

    And I have been pointing out that any "security" policy/plan that targets open carriers while ignoring concealed carriers has nothing to do with providing any actual security but has everything to do with being open carry phobic. And if the focus really was on providing security to prevent a shooting then anyone who was actually intellectually honest would realize targeting only the guns that can be seen still leaves all the guns that can't be seen... which means there are a bunch of guns that "security" doesn't even know about. And the assumption that what can't be seen can't be a threat is just plain ... silly.

    What annoys me is when there is a shooting and it is said that a gun carrying member of security stopped the shooter by using his/her concealed gun ... that is used as justification for security carrying guns yet that very same reasoning is also justification for anyone and everyone in the congregation to carry guns because whether carrying openly or concealed the point is to have a gun so a person doesn't have to get shot waiting for security to come running.

    You know... like outside of "church" in the outside world where people carry guns openly or concealed so they don't get shot waiting for the cops (security) to come running...........

  9. #88
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    I am reminded of the following story when people say "There is no need for guns! God will protect me!"

    A man was on the roof of his house during a flood and prayed for God to save him....

    Along came a neighbor in a canoe who said to the man... "Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

    Then a motor boat came along and the guy in the boat said..."Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

    And then a helicopter showed up dangling a rope and the pilot said "Grab the rope!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

    Well... the man of the roof drowned and when he met God he asked God why He didn't come and save him and God said:

    "Who do you think sent the canoe, the motorboat, and the helicopter?"

    Moral of the story? Get off your ass and use what God provides to save yourself.

    So........... yes God will protect us... after all ... He sent us guns.

  10. #89
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    I hear this lot that Jesus accepted sinners and prostitutes and tax collectors and much of the time this is used as an excuse by people who want to come to a church but don’t want to change anything in their life.

    The truth is that Jesus did meet with the sinners but he didn’t leave them in their sin, He expected them to follow him and go out and spread the word. The Bible doesn’t indicate anywhere that Jesus condoned sin or preach a “do what you want and got to Heaven anyway” kind of Gospel.
    The Bible also lays out some very specific rules for order in worship and indicates very clearly that the church isn’t about everyone doing their own thing as it suits them (and as a side note you certainly can’t have that in a sanctuary that seats thousands of people or you’d have utter pandemonium).

    I asked a question (which most of you ducked) about who here actually attended church and since it appears that most of you do not let me share a couple of stories with you about things that I have actually seen happen in different services in my church.

    Top of the list is, of course the guy that decided Christians were evil and tried to show us the error of our ways with an AR15.

    There was the guy we found sleeping in the storage room who attacked the ushers when we woke him up.

    There was the lady who stood up in the middle of service and started waving some homemade flags that were supposed to draw the “Presence of the Holy Spirit” and mind you this woman was on a “mission from God” and did not take kindly to our asking her to stop “God’s Work” .

    There was the guy that stood up as soon as the Pastor started to take an offering and started screaming “Repent and believe in the Gospel” I’m not 100% sure but I think he thought any kind of offering was “of the Devil”.

    Then there was the drunk guy (Jesus loves the drunks) that showed up with a “message” to share with the entire congregation in the middle of service. He was 1005 certain that God sent him and wasn't taking "no" for an answer.

    I could go on but I think you get the idea.

    In addition to the above we also receive what are judged to be credible death threats against our Pastor regularly so that’s another thing we get to watch out for.

    This isn’t sitting in the back row of a 30 person church where you know everyone by name it’s more like keeping an eye on a small city with some number of guys.

    As has been pointed out we can’t keep anyone from sneaking a gun into the sanctuary, the truth is you can’t even keep someone from rolling up in your parking lot and starting to shoot people all you can do is react.

    What I can do is keep the disruptive influences to a minimum and whether you agree or not it has been decided by our church council that someone walking around our church openly armed is a disruptive influence. It has been decided (and again this is largely hypothetical because it hasn’t happened yet.) that the most non confrontational way to deal with it is to place security in close proximity to the person and talk to him after service. (again, I don't know about your church but people threaten to kill our pastor regularly and I don't care what the odds are no, we're not going to let you meet with the Pastor while opencarrying)

    No one is asking you to like it, no one is asking you to agree with it I’m just letting you know that’s what is going to happen if you opt to open carry in my church
    The finest Vodka is a razor Matthew, it leaves no ragged edges.

  11. My situation is a little different than those of you residing in the free(er) states. Living in New York, it took me decades to finally get a judge to grant me a full carry amendment to the restricted target/hunting license I've held for 40 years. We don't have open carry in this state but I carry concealed in church "religiously" (and everywhere else I go) and only the head deacon and the leader of the security team (and of course, my family) know I carry concealed at all times. Many of the ushers are law enforcement and some of them "print" more than I do so I know I'm not the only one armed. My particular function at the church places me in a good position to observe about 90% of the activity in the church at any given time so my presence is welcomed at least by those who know I carry. To answer your question after this long prelude, I would welcome anyone duly licensed to worship in my church, as our freedom, in my opinion, comes from God anyway.

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