The Open Carry Argument - Page 17
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. Quote Originally Posted by GOV5 View Post
    I don't know where this "civil suit" stuff came from, when there are no criminal charges against someone, or they have been found "not guilty" in criminal court. The Constitution never said it's OK to be tried twice, if it's one criminal, and one civil case. It said double jeopardy is ILLEGAL.

    There should be ample proof there are GROUNDS for ANY suit before it is brought before a court and taxpayer money is wasted. Not to mention the money the innocent party has to pony up just to defend a case that should never have been permitted to occur.

    We need SERIOUS TORT REFORM in this country!!
    I do agree with you on ideal and principle. Unfortunately, though, no charges for an assault conducted in self defense or a verdict of not guilty by reason of self defense does not negate the fact that an assault did occur. It simply means the assault was justified. Then some scumbag lawyer will use the fact that an assault did actually occur to try to gain financial advantage. Unfortunately, in this case, double jeopardy only applies to being tried twice for the same offense within the same legal jurisdiction. The civil case would be in a different jurisdiction because it would be tried in the civil court and not the criminal court.

    This is also why military members can be tried in the military as well as out in town for offenses committed out in town. There are two separate jurisdictions involved.

    It ain't necessarily right, but that's the way it is (or at least the way I understand it to be!)

  2.   
  3. #162
    Join Date
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    Out In the Country Side of Eastern Ohio
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    Read this and tell me what it says: the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Open carry is a form of bearing arms. Which the government can not restrict, but private property owners, like stores can.

    The government does not trust the people, so we are restricted on open carry in many places.

    If some one says that you are not a part of a well regulated militia, then tell them you are an army of one.

    Jerry
    NRA Benefactor Life Member
    North American Hunting Club Life Member
    Crossbow Nation

  4. #163
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    Paw Paw, MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by handgonnetoter View Post
    I am just writing down what I read in the various gun magazines I get. There have been a number of court cases, that they tell about in the magazines, where the state finds the accused not guilty of charges from the state, but end up getting sued by the family of the bad guy in a civil trial for money or whatever. I would list the magazines here for you to look up the stories for yourself, but I don't know if I am allowed to do that on this forum or not.
    Here's another example of the benefits of some Castle Doctrine Laws. Legislation has been written to compliment the "no duty to retreat" law, by providing immunity to those who have injured or killed a party in SELF DEFENSE, from law suits by the agressor or his family, or whomever. Castle Doctrine laws do vary by state. Some states don't have them at all, some provide the "no duty to retreat" clause, and others offer the "no duty to retreat" WITH protection from these secondary law suits.
    Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics...

  5. #164
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    Lowcountry, SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopnpop View Post
    Here's another example of the benefits of some Castle Doctrine Laws. Legislation has been written to compliment the "no duty to retreat" law, by providing immunity to those who have injured or killed a party in SELF DEFENSE, from law suits by the agressor or his family, or whomever. Castle Doctrine laws do vary by state. Some states don't have them at all, some provide the "no duty to retreat" clause, and others offer the "no duty to retreat" WITH protection from these secondary law suits.
    Yep, that's how it is in SC. CANNOT be sued in civil court for this. Thanks South Carolina. Read 16-11-420 B, below. Get on your state representatives to pass this sort of legislation.

    SECTION 16-11-410. Citation of article.
    This article may be cited as the "Protection of Persons and Property Act".

    SECTION 16-11-420. Intent and findings of General Assembly.
    (A) It is the intent of the General Assembly to codify the common law Castle Doctrine which recognizes that a person's home is his castle and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person's place of business.

    (B) The General Assembly finds that it is proper for law-abiding citizens to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others.
    (C) The General Assembly finds that Section 20, Article I of the South Carolina Constitution guarantees the right of the people to bear arms, and this right shall not be infringed.

    (D) The General Assembly finds that persons residing in or visiting this State have a right to expect to remain unmolested and safe within their homes, businesses, and vehicles.

    (E) The General Assembly finds that no person or victim of crime should be required to surrender his personal safety to a criminal, nor should a person or victim be required to needlessly retreat in the face of intrusion or attack.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by miestrojerry View Post
    read this and tell me what it says: The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Open carry is a form of bearing arms. Which the government can not restrict, but private property owners, like stores can.

    The government does not trust the people, so we are restricted on open carry in many places.

    If some one says that you are not a part of a well regulated militia, then tell them you are an army of one.

    Jerry
    rofl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    I like that!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    It's pretty lame when a person has to resort to comparing a pre-meditated hit on four uniformed police officers to an open carrier getting shot standing in line waiting for coffee. The Brady Bunch and the Violence Policy Center also have to make such far fetched comparisons to support their position. But if that works for you, go for it. I don't buy it.

    Seriously... the cops were shot because they were wearing blue uniforms and badges, not because they were wearing guns.
    Lame? No, I don't think so. Obviously my point sailed right over your head.... While I was talking about criminal intent, you zeroed in on the uniforms like a deer caught in the headlights.

    All I'm saying is that OC in most situations is not a prudent option for a variety of reasons, far more than the "lone" reason given in the original article. Does that mean I disagree with an individual's right to carry openly? Absolutely not. Does that mean I think concealed carry is the best option, 100% of the time? Again,

    I don't begrudge anyone from exercising their right to do so, I nod knowingly to those individuals I come across in public who are carrying openly, and occasionally I exercise the right myself.

    Be safe out there guys.

  8. #167
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    Out In the Country Side of Eastern Ohio
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    Compare what to who??????? Where I live, we effectively have no LEOs. The sheriff's department take reports over the phone, There is no community policing, the LEOs don't or can't come out and help us develop our own crime watch.

    I talked to a local security company about alarm systems, they told me that I can not count on the county sheriff for assistance, even if it is an open gun battle. They may show up to take reports at best. If I need to have some government agency to protect me, I was instructed to call the VFD. They all have guns.

    Right now, this second, I have a 357 on my hip. There is a 12 guage within reach in my bedroom. My dog is the best warning and defense system I can have where I am at.

    I forgot to mention this, the sheriff's department has a M113 APC, so they could come to a pitch gun battle, but it would be a long trip to get my place.

    Jerry

    I am an Army of ONE and extremely well organized.
    NRA Benefactor Life Member
    North American Hunting Club Life Member
    Crossbow Nation

  9. mjmcg,

    Thank you for your opinion. Very typical New York. I would not expect anything less from your state, and you have delivered!

  10. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    mjmcg,

    Thank you for your opinion. Very typical New York. I would not expect anything less from your state, and you have delivered!
    If you are done polishing your CCW badge, you might mail it to mjmcg as a token gift.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mjmcg View Post
    "Very typical New York"

    That's a tough one to follow up on since that can be taken so many ways. What do you think of when you hear the words "New York?"
    Hoplophobia and gun control.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjmcg View Post
    The plain and simple truth of the matter is, were it to be allowed and a person so chose to exercise that option, they end up with more trouble on their hands they bargained for. If not by the public in general, but by those members of our society who would specifically target them due to the fact they see an easy opportunity to obtain a handgun through commission of a crime itself.
    If it is such a plain and simple truth, then why does it not happen in real life where people do open carry guns? The only place these crimes of open carriers getting shot, or their guns getting taken from them are on the internet forums, in the imaginations of those afraid at the sight of an armed American because they have been listening to the claims of the anti-gun crowd for too long and have begun to believe their propaganda.

    I doubt that you are interested in the facts. But here is what happens in real life:

    Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

    Gun Owner Saves Lives In The Richmond VA Golden Market Shooting

    Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.
    http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...5.1-screen.pdf

    Paper page 31 (file page 38):
    Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
    knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
    committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

    Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
    they fear being shot.

    Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
    burglaries”174 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
    owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
    burglary” rate of only 13%.

    Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:

    • 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
    home is that they fear being shot during the crime."

    • 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
    victim
    than they are about running into the police."
    The FACTS are that a criminal has a much easier method of obtaining a gun than to take one from an armed citizen. The FACTS are that the majority don't want to get shot and don't want to get caught. Messing with a person they KNOW is armed does not meet either one of those goals. The FACTS are that a criminal when he sees an armed person will simply will wait 2 minutes for that armed person to leave or go down the street one block (or go to New York) where they will find an abundance of targets that don't appear to be armed.

    If you would like to support your claim from factual data I would love to see it because in the multitude of open carry arguments I have read your opinion is expressed quite often, and yet we fail to see any factual data to back it up. Unless you want to count the 4 Lakewood police officers shot in a coffee shop which was a hit against uniformed police officers, or you want to point to crimes where armed security guards at Wal Mart were shot in the face because they were wearing a uniform and were shot because it was a planned attack on an armored car. But those instances are vastly different than Joe Schmoe civilian getting popped on the street or in a convenience store which you claim will happen if Joe Schmoe carries his gun openly.

    I don't care if you carry your gun concealed, openly, or duct taped to your forehead. But I won't make such childish blanket statements about a segment of fellow gun owner's and carriers such as, "Having one ying-yang walking around like Bronco Billy" and "some putz is walking around with a John Wayne complex." and "because he's got the Dirty Hairy / John Wayne thing going on" and "Hey look at me I'm a badass with a gun!". Those phrases sound like they came straight from the Brady Bunch and belong on the Brady Bunch's website. They do absolutely NOTHING to help our cause.


    Quote Originally Posted by mjmcg
    no profession of fact intended or inferred
    No truer words ever spoken. You obviously aren't interested in facts. It seems your major goal is to belittle your fellow gun owners/carriers. We get enough that from the Brady Bunch.

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