The Open Carry Argument - Page 29
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1gunr View Post
    As you stated the NRA, GOA, & SAF is doing nothing to educated the public, so why not us??
    Personally, ya'll can do whatcha want to. I just know that California "empty gun" open carriers have lost their right to do so, as of 1/1/12. Too many idiots just don't know the gun laws, or constitutional rights? I say carry without making a complete scene, and handle it like a mature, law abiding citizen. I've watched countless youtube videos about open carry. It seems more times than not, that the OCing citizen whats to prove LEO stupid, rather than just cooperating with them, give them the information they need, and go on about your business. If you haven't committed a crime while OCing, then why do you have to prove anything? If you've done nothing wrong, why act like such a smart ass "know-it-all"? I'm not a lawyer. I never will be. But I'm smart enough to know that when I'm dealing with LE, they have a job to do too. If they have to take the time to "check me out", then why not be pleasant about it? And just get it over with? If detaining me for a few minutes to verify I'm not a felon when I'm open carrying will move the incident along to a happy closure....then I'm all for it! I don't have anything to prove. I know what my rights are. But sometimes I think we need to pick our fights more carefully. If all you ever want to be is a gun-toting right fighter, then I say get televised spot to make your voice heard. If you want to educate the public, then mass media is the way to do it. If you can't get support for it from the NRA, or anyone else for this matter; then quit sending them your hard earned dollar. If they don't represent you as a law abiding, gun owning, american tax payer; find someone else who will! I just don't wanna see my right to open carry taken away for the actions of a few who think they know it all! I will OC on my own terms. I'm not gonna educate, argue, or carry a gun on my hip, and a sign over my head to prove a point to a public that I'm a law-abiding citizen?

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  3. #282
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    [QUOTE=Fisherman777:237196]
    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    Keep in mind that we all have accepted the "reasonable" infringements to the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. "Reasonable" gun laws that have only served to disarm and endanger honest citizens. The Constitution is the only carry permit that is required but because we have allowed 'little by little' and 'give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile', we have surrendered our 'right' to bear arms till it is almost unrecognizable and bandied about as a mere privilage.

    They would like you to think it is a privilege. This is patently false. It is your right, not given but written on your heart. It comes with the operating program we are equipped with from birth. As the Constitution says in 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. They used the word 'enumerated' because it was assumed those rights were endowed by a higher power, in effect, already retained by "We The People".

    We have been led to believe that we are now too sophisticated to need such crude devices such as tools for self defense. We are not to be trusted with our own self defense. Media wants the world to believe that our guns are dangerous. We are dangerous. More so than cars driven by drunks, or knife and club wielding thugs. Guns in fact, are the real problem.

    So does it not anger you that you need a permit to exercise your right to carry or as the Constitution puts it, "bear arms"? Every activist judge that ruled against the Constitution because they felt it was 'reasonable to limit your right to bear arms needs to be re-schooled in Constitutional law at the least.

    The Constitution is as constant as the morning star. It is black and white. No grey areas. Unchangeable. Shall not be infringed means, just that. If we continue to accept tiny little infringments in the name of "reasonable" we will soon not have a Constitution at all. Just a faint memory and one day an archeologist will dig up a digital copy and see what they missed.
    "Enumerated" means to name one by one, it doesn't mean they were saying they were granted by our creater....although they did elsewhere....just not then. They were saying that the inclusion of the rights enumerated in the constitution, were by no means an exhaustive list.

    I agree on every other point and the context as a whole though.

  4. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Grognard Gunny View Post
    I like "hardballer's" post quoted above. Well said and reasoned through.

    In fact there are a number of solid "rationales" for both POVs to be found in reading this thread.

    However, still not convinced that I want to become a "general public educator" in "gun rights". Got better things to do with my time left dancing on this plane of existance. (One of the reasons why I stopped teaching at Jr. Colleges.)

    So I think I will continue on the path of least personal involvement in daily "hassles" and continue concealed. (Might change my mind should ever I see another open carrier in and about my town...... Alas. Nary a one!)

    GG
    And that is as it should be. I would be the last person to tell everyone they MUST OC. What I don't like, is when a CC proponent tries to tell me my way is wrong As long as it's legal, it shouldn't make any difference if I CC or OC.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by ESD View Post
    rather than just cooperating with them, give them the information they need, and go on about your business. If you haven't committed a crime while OCing, then why do you have to prove anything? If you've done nothing wrong, why act like such a smart ass "know-it-all"? I'm not a lawyer. I never will be. But I'm smart enough to know that when I'm dealing with LE, they have a job to do too. If they have to take the time to "check me out", then why not be pleasant about it? And just get it over with? If detaining me for a few minutes to verify I'm not a felon when I'm open carrying will move the incident along to a happy closure....then I'm all for it!
    I'm sorry...but too many men and women have died and shed their blood on foreign and domestic soil to first establish and then protect the rights that we have for me just to shrug away those rights for the mere sake of convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ESD View Post
    I'm not gonna educate, argue, or carry a gun on my hip, and a sign over my head to prove a point to a public that I'm a law-abiding citizen?
    Interesting how you have no problem proving to a police officer who has no legal basis to detain you that you are a law-abiding citizen simply because they ask you too.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  6. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I'm sorry...but too many men and women have died and shed their blood on foreign and domestic soil to first establish and then protect the rights that we have for me just to shrug away those rights for the mere sake of convenience.

    No need to be sorry, your entitled to your opinion on the mere sake of or lack of convenience. Until open carry in Ohio is just like carrying your wallet, I'm willing to pick and choose my battles. You don't have to be. And I don't care how you decide to handle your particular situation "if" your confronted by LE? For me, I am ex-military too...BUT my rights, your rights, don't mean squat if our legislators don't make our gun carrying rights clear and clearly written and understandable to all, and without misrepresentation in anyway, by any jurisdiction. Obviously, we're not there yet. Otherwise, if we were...everybody would carry openly, and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. But I appreciate you being a right fighter. I absolutely understand your opinion on this subject too. "I" am happy for now with being able to carry openly. My whole opinion on this subject was only that group carry, and meet and greets are not for me. I would rather handle my situation, on my own, with my attorney. I know what my rights are. I know that I don't have to give them any information if I'm not being charged with a crime, or arrested. I have that right to remain silent. But is that the battle I want to fight, or is the battle I want to fight about legally carrying my firearm openly? I don't want to get caught up in all the legal aspects of a LE encounter. I have an attorney for that. Once I've been arrested for "God knows what?" then I'll shut my mouth and let my lawyer deal with it. It's just that easy. I just don't think being uncooperative with LE by being a smart ass know-it-all, is going to further my personel agenda? But you are more than welcome to stand on your soap box my friend and profess your constitutional rights. I'm far from being a "sheep", and I'm not going to be denied my rights anymore than the next guy. The open carry debate will continue to be a delicate one, until LE Depts. have as clear an understanding of the laws as some of us informed citizens.



    Interesting how you have no problem proving to a police officer who has no legal basis to detain you that you are a law-abiding citizen simply because they ask you too.
    I look at this just as if it were a traffic stop. I may not have done nothing wrong in my eyes. But nevertheless, I'm being "detained". Here's that part your waiting for...."Can I see your license and registration?" What point are we as law abiding citizens trying to prove to LE...Who just want to know what's going on? The time it takes for some uneducated cop to decide to call for a supervisor to handle his situation, you could have just gave him your name, address, and birthdate. Really, if you've not done anything wrong, what is the problem? I don't get it? Check my status and let me get on with gettin on! I know it's my right not to tell them anything! But what's the point, if only to prove a point? I don't care. I just want to carry my gun legally? I don't have to fulfill a need to exercise all my constitutional rights at one time do I? I can pick and choose right? So If I choose to give LE identifying information on me, is that alright with you? I'm not doing this to make a specticle in public by yelling out my civil rights. If you want to teach the sheeple that class, more power to ya bud! I'm not taking on the responsibility to tell anybody what their rights are. Ain't my job! If someone asks me, and I know without a doubt what I'm telling them is true, then I may have that conversation. But minding my own business works fine for me.

  7. Excellent note about the NRA's lack of public education. But the NRA isn't alone in that category. I don't see other gun organizations doing it either. Therefore, I don't contribute to ANY of them. Plus, the NRA blew it in the McDonald case. They had the best shot we've had in a long time to incorporate the "Constitutional Carry" right in their argument to the Supreme Court. We had the most favorable Court we will see for a long time. The individual right to carry, open or concealed, ANYWHERE, should have been settled RIGHT THEN! The NRA blew it! Bunch of no-guts bureaucrats who want to keep you sending in your annual dues. Heck, if they had done what they should have, and argued the case for carry, they would have gotten us out of this mess. Then they could go about working on organizing more weekend shooting contests around the country. BTW, that was the original reason they were founded.

    No, they "opted out" because if they had settled everything there in Chicago, they would have to cut their staff and salaries. They are as self-serving and self-preserving as Congress is.

    And I agree with you. I don't think the "meet and greet" events are anything more than "in your face" childish-like behavior events. "Na,NA,NA...I can carry a gun and you can't do anything about it." Not exactly a love-inspiring way to get your point across. It only further alienates the folks that are already frightened about guns. That's not the way to get our point across.

    Most folks don't have any idea what is involved in getting a permit to carry a gun. Media attacks have been very successful in relating guns to death, like the guns will just go off by accident and kill innocent people. We as gun owners need advertising that exposes these anti-gun folks for the liars they really are. We also need to tell them we aren't trying to get everyone to carry a gun. It is a choice they should have.

    Oh, one other point too. For the liberal wackos that say the 2nd Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to keep and bear arms....IF...you are not in the militia....Have you heard that argument yet? Well, tell them that when the Constitution was formed, the 2nd A was put there to protect the citizens against an overbearing and aggressively hostile Government that would try to force , with arms, it's will on an unwilling populace. Therefore, the second A ALSO stipulated that there could be "well-regulated" militias. This is my opinion, but I think that "regulated" meant organized, and a group that practiced on a regular "regulated" basis. And the members of the militia were the citizens. EVERYBODY was part of the militia. If they were working i the crop fields, and the call was sounded, they dropped everything, right then, and went to the assigned gathering place.

    So tell your liberal, anti-gun friends that if they don't want to be a part of the militia, and are therefore cowards that are afraid to fight for liberty, then shut their mouths and get out of our way in our fight for liberty. Am I afraid of our Govt pulling up a squad of soldiers in front of my house, with the intent to take my weapons, or property, or ME? Well, ask the people of Katrina. ASk the people of 1938 Germany. Neither of these groups thought so either. Do I think it's imminent? NO! Do I think there is a possibility it could happen in America? YES! I think it would be more of a Gang-type movement, but it could still happen. Under this Administration, there have been more flagrant definace's of the Constitution that I have ever seen.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by GOV5
    And I agree with you. I don't think the "meet and greet" events are anything more than "in your face" childish-like behavior events. "Na,NA,NA...I can carry a gun and you can't do anything about it." Not exactly a love-inspiring way to get your point across. It only further alienates the folks that are already frightened about guns. That's not the way to get our point across.
    The local car club here meets several times a year at several area local parks. They all gather and park their cars in the park and talk to each other about parts and restoration, etc...

    Where is the outcry over them? Meet and greets by gun carriers are no different.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  9. Having previously posting my thoughts ( I prefer to carry concealed just my personal choice and nothing more or less ) on this subject and after recieveing many updates on others posting's I must say there are many good post here and all have their own personal choices as it should be. The reason for this reply is to simply say that for those who keep referring to the Constitution please be aware ( I'm sure a lot are ) that each Right carries with it many articles and clauses which must be read in order to be fully educated on the particular Right to which to are referring at the time. Again this is just a reminder that when using the Constitution one must use ALL of that particular Right's info in order to make a well informed reply.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by ESD View Post
    I'm not doing this to make a specticle in public by yelling out my civil rights. If you want to teach the sheeple that class, more power to ya bud! I'm not taking on the responsibility to tell anybody what their rights are. Ain't my job! If someone asks me, and I know without a doubt what I'm telling them is true, then I may have that conversation. But minding my own business works fine for me.
    I'm not making a public spectacle by yelling about civil rights either. Nor am I teaching sheeple that class. What I am doing is quietly and politely asking the police officer, "Are you detaining me under suspicion of committing a crime?" If the answer is, "No." then I am going to go about my business. If the answer is, "Yes" then I will quietly and politely ask for a supervisor to be called to the scene. Would you provide your driver's license and carry permit to Joe Civilian stranger who walked up to you and asked to see them because he noticed you were carrying a gun in a store? Would you allow Joe Civilian stranger to remove your gun from the holster, unload it and hold on to it for their safety? Yet you have no problems at all showing those items to Joe Stranger who happens to be wearing a uniform and a badge....

    Why waive your 4th Amendment rights simply to comply with.... oh, that's right, it's too much of an inconvenience.


    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." ~ William Pitt
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

  11. #290
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    [QUOTE=NavyLCDR;247487]I'm not making a public spectacle by yelling about civil rights either. Nor am I teaching sheeple that class. What I am doing is quietly and politely asking the police officer, "Are you detaining me under suspicion of committing a crime?" If the answer is, "No." then I am going to go about my business. If the answer is, "Yes" then I will quietly and politely ask for a supervisor to be called to the scene. Would you provide your driver's license and carry permit to Joe Civilian stranger who walked up to you and asked to see them because he noticed you were carrying a gun in a store? Would you allow Joe Civilian stranger to remove your gun from the holster, unload it and hold on to it for their safety? Yet you have no problems at all showing those items to Joe Stranger who happens to be wearing a uniform and a badge....

    Before you were blasting me with "I'm sorry...but too many men and women have died and shed their blood on foreign and domestic soil to first establish and then protect the rights that we have for me just to shrug away those rights for the mere sake of convenience." We were talking about being detained and interacting with LEO's...Not Joe Civilian. Now your adding a whole new issue? I never said anything about giving any information to Joe Civilian?

    We were initially talking about how "I" felt about group open carry, and group meet & greets. I mentioned that I felt these activities were somewhat aggressive and attention getting activities that I don't feel are the proper way to educate anyone about open carry rights here in Ohio. And after what has just happened in California, pushing the open carry issue with a "mob" of open carrying, law abiding citizens... It did more damage, than good? And now they've lost they're right to open carry there? Right fighting or not, it has the potential to ruin open carry for Ohians, just as it did in California. Which is why I said, "You have to pick your fights". The way you explained your interaction with a LEO is exactly how I would handle it as well. But I wouldn't have a problem giving LE my name, address, or DOB? This is where you choose to continue a fight about your rights, and I just want to let them run my info. and go on about my business. "I DON'T CARE ABOUT FIGHTING OVER MY RIGHT TO SHARE MY INFORMATION." I care about the big picture....being able to open carry tomorrow. And the next day, and so on.... And maybe if I work harder at showing LE that I am a law abiding citizen, willing to cooperate to lessen the time I'm detaining him/her from actually fighting crime. Maybe rather than fighting me? I would want to do that, instead of fighting for a right, that's really not that relevant to my cause, at that time?

    I totally understand your position on your right, "not having to give information, if your not under arrest"...but is that fight really the one you want to have in front of other citizens; who are probably still trying to find out if you've broken the law, just because your openly carrying a firearm? One battle at a time, I say. If I'm unsuccessful in providing sufficient information at the time of my stop, and I get arrested for anything, I'm done talking anyways? What do I gain by right fighting over identifying information at any point in all of this? All I want to do is openly carry my firearm for protection. That's it! I gotta lawyer to fight for my rights if it all falls apart.

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