The Open Carry Argument - Page 30
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. #291
    Well, first NavyLCDR said "Joe Stranger" not Joe Civilian. And really, unless you know all the local LEOs, they are Joe/Josephine Stranger to you.

    Next, if I'm going to stand up for my 2nd amendment rights, why should I throw away my 4th and 5th amendment rights, or any of my other rights? Courts have said, repeatedly, OCing is not reasonable articulable suspicion for a LEO to stop and ID you. If that's the ONLY reason they have for stopping you, you do not have to present ID.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  2.   
  3. #292
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Vickery, (Whites Landing) Ohio
    Posts
    110
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Well, first NavyLCDR said "Joe Stranger" not Joe Civilian. And really, unless you know all the local LEOs, they are Joe/Josephine Stranger to you.

    Next, if I'm going to stand up for my 2nd amendment rights, why should I throw away my 4th and 5th amendment rights, or any of my other rights? Courts have said, repeatedly, OCing is not reasonable articulable suspicion for a LEO to stop and ID you. If that's the ONLY reason they have for stopping you, you do not have to present ID.
    I know all that Al. And I'm not throwing away any rights? I'm just choosing for "myself" which ones I want to use and when. Do I have that "right"? I know I don't have to give them ID. I know the act of OCing is not reasonable suspicion. And you know as well as I do, that if a call was made explaining that someone has a gun, the police are coming to investigate. And you know that your going to ask them if your being charged with a crime? Then your gonna ask them why your being detained if you haven't committed a crime? You might even ask them if they know that it's legal to open carry in Ohio, and that you are an armed civilian who isn't breaking any laws, and if you are free to go? Close enough?

    And I don't need to know "any" of the local LEO's? If they're driving the car, and wearing the uniform, I'm gonna probably assume they are LE? So I'm not at all confused between the difference of Joe/Josephine Stranger, and local LE?

    Just because I don't have an issue with cooperating with LE, doesn't make me a dumb*ss. I may choose to handle my open carry encounter differently than you and NavyLCDR? I may handle it exactly as you would? I will have to determine how I'm being treated during the first 5 seconds of my encounter. And decide then if my rights are being violated, and how I want to proceed at that point. But I don't need to walk with 20-30 open carry citizens, or attend a meet and greet to exercise my rights? And I certainly don't need anyone telling me which ones they presume to think I'm throwing away? They're my rights, and I will pick and choose which ones I feel are necessary to fight for, if and when I feel I need to? If that's alright with you? Just because I don't feel the need to exercise one right over another, doesn't mean I don't know my rights? I'm clear on how to handle the open carry LE stop. And yes, I know it's gonna happen, and yes, I know how I'm going to handle it. My original reply was to the issue of group carry and publicized meet and greets. I gave "my" personal opinion on how I felt about those issues, and have been given an unwarranted lesson in my civil rights? I'm all for Open Carry! I'm just not doing it to teach a lesson on civil rights to anyone. I don't have a need to fulfill by doing that? But it seems some of you folks do...so tell it to whom ever will listen to you. And good luck!

  4. #293
    If you want to present your ID when requested, but not required, this is your choice. Just like it's anyone elses' choice to refuse, when not required to do so.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    The local car club here meets several times a year at several area local parks. They all gather and park their cars in the park and talk to each other about parts and restoration, etc...

    Where is the outcry over them? Meet and greets by gun carriers are no different.
    Yeah, right! At Barnes & Noble?????????????

    If you are having a gun owners meet & greet", do the rest of us a favor and put up a banner declaring it a "gunshow", so the rest of the public will be warned.

    And how will you be dressed for this event? Will all of you ride up on your Harleys, dressed in black leather jackets and chaps, with Studded Leather holster belts holding S&W 357 magnums? What image do YOU think that projects to the innocent public? In a city/county park where families are walking their dogs and children.

    Or do you use a little grey matter, and have the professionalism to dress up in business suits, with ties? Now, what image would THAT project? I'm sure yo will agree it would project an entirely DIFFERENT image.

    It's all in the "presentation", and that is what we are trying to get across to you. Is it your RIGHT to do it anyway you want? YES!
    Is it the best way? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Unfortunately, acting like a bunch of uneducated rednecks, without any show of upbringing, or class, is YOUR RIGHT too. There is nothing illegal about it. But it sure is ugly to watch...by gun owners or the general public.

  6. In South Carolina, if someone tries that "I'm gonna exercise my rights" crap, they go straight to the jailhouse. Reason: You are required to present your driver's license, proof of insurance, and registration. If you are a permit holder, your are required to present that also and inform the officer you are carrying, )and where it is on your body, if you are smart).

  7. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by GOV5 View Post
    In South Carolina, if someone tries that "I'm gonna exercise my rights" crap, they go straight to the jailhouse. Reason: You are required to present your driver's license, proof of insurance, and registration. If you are a permit holder, your are required to present that also and inform the officer you are carrying, )and where it is on your body, if you are smart).
    Well, DOH, South Carolina is one of a handful of states that infringe on the 2nd amendment.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay Al View Post
    Well, DOH, South Carolina is one of a handful of states that infringe on the 2nd amendment.
    OK, I'll bite. Exactly what other states are in that "handful", and how do we infringe on the 2nd A ?
    And how does the state in which you live differ from S.C. and the others that are part of the "handfull" ?

  9. #298
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    tennessee
    Posts
    105
    Quote Originally Posted by GOV5 View Post
    Yeah, right! At Barnes & Noble?????????????

    If you are having a gun owners meet & greet", do the rest of us a favor and put up a banner declaring it a "gunshow", so the rest of the public will be warned.

    And how will you be dressed for this event? Will all of you ride up on your Harleys, dressed in black leather jackets and chaps, with Studded Leather holster belts holding S&W 357 magnums? What image do YOU think that projects to the innocent public? In a city/county park where families are walking their dogs and children.

    Or do you use a little grey matter, and have the professionalism to dress up in business suits, with ties? Now, what image would THAT project? I'm sure yo will agree it would project an entirely DIFFERENT image.

    It's all in the "presentation", and that is what we are trying to get across to you. Is it your RIGHT to do it anyway you want? YES!
    Is it the best way? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Unfortunately, acting like a bunch of uneducated rednecks, without any show of upbringing, or class, is YOUR RIGHT too. There is nothing illegal about it. But it sure is ugly to watch...by gun owners or the general public.
    well for starters, i really dont care what the "innocent public" thinks of my image. i dont carry to please them in the first place. majority are anti-gun anyways. why should i conform to their desires? the public will think what they will regardless. if im going to be judged by how much "class" i have based on my looks, then i have no class, nor do i want to.

    wearing a suit? are you serious? i have no desire to dress like a federal agent and put on a show to look like something im NOT. theres an old saying about not judging a book by its cover. i guess you havent herd it. you can worry about your image all you want. i could care less. the American people have gone soft. theres no way around that. and im not about to contribute to the mis-informed public's view on firearms, nor try to hide the fact that i carry a weapon. if people dont like open carry, then thats on them. not me.
    "You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore."

  10. #299
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Pasco, Washington, United States
    Posts
    6,270
    Quote Originally Posted by GOV5:247687
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    The local car club here meets several times a year at several area local parks. They all gather and park their cars in the park and talk to each other about parts and restoration, etc...

    Where is the outcry over them? Meet and greets by gun carriers are no different.
    Yeah, right! At Barnes & Noble?????????????

    If you are having a gun owners meet & greet", do the rest of us a favor and put up a banner declaring it a "gunshow", so the rest of the public will be warned.

    And how will you be dressed for this event? Will all of you ride up on your Harleys, dressed in black leather jackets and chaps, with Studded Leather holster belts holding S&W 357 magnums? What image do YOU think that projects to the innocent public? In a city/county park where families are walking their dogs and children.

    Or do you use a little grey matter, and have the professionalism to dress up in business suits, with ties? Now, what image would THAT project? I'm sure yo will agree it would project an entirely DIFFERENT image.

    It's all in the "presentation", and that is what we are trying to get across to you. Is it your RIGHT to do it anyway you want? YES!
    Is it the best way? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Unfortunately, acting like a bunch of uneducated rednecks, without any show of upbringing, or class, is YOUR RIGHT too. There is nothing illegal about it. But it sure is ugly to watch...by gun owners or the general public.
    You have a very skewed view of a meet and greet. Do you ask all carriers if they dress in baggy pants and big hoodies and carry around "forty fo's" or desert eagles? You can make up as many asinine descriptions of a carrier as you want, and some one some where probably fits that description, but 99% of us don't ride Harley's and carry 357 magnums. 99% of the people attending meet and greets here don't look like red necks. Maybe that's the way they are in SC, but it seems by your description of SC, it's a very restrictive and policed state, and maybe red necks are the only people that would want to live there. Though, I feel your other SC patrons wouldn't feel the same way.

    Meet and greets are not gun shows btw. They have little to do with the gun itself, and more to do with the person and rights behind it.

    I find gun owners that make up degrading descriptions of carriers to try and get their point across as ugly. I find the Brady bunch to be ugly for the same reason.

  11. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by GOV5 View Post
    OK, I'll bite. Exactly what other states are in that "handful", and how do we infringe on the 2nd A ?
    And how does the state in which you live differ from S.C. and the others that are part of the "handfull" ?
    The following states do not allow Open Carry, with the possible exception of hunting.
    Texas
    Oklahoma
    Arkansas
    Illinois
    Florida
    South Carolina
    New York
    The District of Columbia

    To which you can add, California doesn't allow loaded open carry, and they recently banned the open carry of unloaded handguns, which of course means Californians can only OC an unloaded longarm now.

    In South Carolina, you can't even OC WITH a license/permit. Although, you can have a loaded pistol in the glove box.

    In Michigan, I can OC a firearm, without a license/permit in most locations. There are some exceptions, however, if I have a CPL, then the number of places where I can OC, increases.

    As for the rest, I don't know how you see infringement, but most of the people I know see any regulation as infringement. I'm not saying I do, but there are a good number of people who do. Personally, I've always felt the only gun law we need in this country is the 2nd Amendment. The problem with "reasonable gun control," is you never know who's definition of "reasonable" is going to be used.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

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