The Open Carry Argument - Page 32
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. Quote Originally Posted by ESD View Post
    What good did it do them to exercise their rights?
    What good is having a right if it cannot be exercised due to fear of government action?

    Quote Originally Posted by ESD View Post
    Personally, I find most, not all of the open carry videos on youtube.com are nothing but bitching, griping, and moaning. If you are so well versed in the Constitutional law, and other gun laws of your State; then why do you need to rally? You've got it all figured out already? Because most of these events are scheduled in certain cities, or towns where an individual or small group of people's rights to openly carry were violated. Or believed to be violated. I'm not saying thats always the case, but they're are some strong coincedences? And I'm not saying that this is all bad either. I think with some proper planning, such an event would be tremendously helpful to educating the public on gun rights, and activities. Pro-gun speakers, especially local politicians, can pave the way to understanding. I just don't think people in general...want to see a bunch of gun-toting locals shoving guns down their throats? It's just like the smoking ban in bars?
    You have to remember - you aren't going to see the group of 10 or 12 people meeting at a local restaurant, where they have made reservations, where they know that management respects the 2nd Amendment, getting together and talking about any and every subject and just happen to have guns on their belts. Why? Because that would be incredibly boring. Yet it happens every day. That is what 90% of the meet and greets are. No different than a group of hunters meeting with their orange hats/vests and camo suits. Heck, no different than a couple of cops meeting in uniform or military personnel, or soccer moms. We like to point to the 1% of crap that makes it on youtube and, as you put it, *****, gripe and moan about it when what is posted on youtube has very little to do with open carry in real life.
    Anyone who says, "I support the 2nd amendment, BUT"... doesn't. Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

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  3. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    What good is having a right if it cannot be exercised due to fear of government action?



    You have to remember - you aren't going to see the group of 10 or 12 people meeting at a local restaurant, where they have made reservations, where they know that management respects the 2nd Amendment, getting together and talking about any and every subject and just happen to have guns on their belts. Why? Because that would be incredibly boring. Yet it happens every day. That is what 90% of the meet and greets are. No different than a group of hunters meeting with their orange hats/vests and camo suits. Heck, no different than a couple of cops meeting in uniform or military personnel, or soccer moms. We like to point to the 1% of crap that makes it on youtube and, as you put it, *****, gripe and moan about it when what is posted on youtube has very little to do with open carry in real life.
    Can you please explain to us...the difference between what we're hearing on here, and what we're seeing on youtube.com? I'm trying to find it myself? Remember, I'm all for open carry. What I'm not for, is parading at any venue within a group to push a Constitutional rights agenda.

    Meeting down to Joe's Barbershop for morning coffee with my gun-toting bretheren is one thing. Meeting there to march up and down main street, is quite another? Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean you should? I think there are other ways to address the public on certain issues. Guns, and possession of guns more importantly, have been a debate among free men in our country even before the Constitution was created.

    I've been a truck driver for over 16 years. There has been a need for change concerning fuel price regulations, for commercial vehicles, since the early 80's. Yet you can't get 3 truck drivers to agree on one thing to bring about a positive change. I think there are similarities in our debating of how to present positive change among gunowners as well? But being able to come on here, and share experiences, attitudes, opinions, and ideas are more than you'll ever get with a bunch of truck drivers. So it's a good thing.

    While I'm fascinated with the whole idea of meet & greets, along with gun walks down main street USA; I rarely, if ever hear the outcome of any of them? Good or bad? Why? Because the message isn't being heard by the right people. Or the message is being distorted with anti-gun rhetoric, before the people who really need to hear it, actually hear it truthfully.

    Maybe the mayor of a town will ask his chief of police "what is going on out there?" The chief says, "relax Mr. Mayor, we have things under control...it's just a group of gun nuts marching up and down main street." "What do they want"? asks the Mayor? "I don't know, but I sent our guys out there to find out" says the chief of police. "Well, tell them not to march in front of the church, my wife's having brunch with the other church ladies there today", says the Mayor. "No problem" says the chief of police.

    Now...if the gun-toting nuts would have called Channel 3 news, a more realistic portrayal, and message to the public could be heard. The people who need to hear the story, become part of the story. After interviewing the gun-toting nuts, the news crew could then interview the mayor, and the chief of police about the truth of OCing in your State. That's when the butter meets the bread! That's when you find out where your problems are, and where the truth is finally heard.

    Just walking up and down main street, isn't sending the right message. Get a permit if need be, and have a public rally with key speakers. Post fliers, and invite local businessmen. Invite the mayor, the city law director, the chief of police, the county sheriff, local church leaders, county commissioners, state representatives, etc... Make sure they are mentioned as being invited, and thank the ones who actually showed up. You want to show your committed to having your uninfringed right to bear arms? Then do it! Don't sit on here and debate with each other. Make the phone calls, and put out the fliers. Your fight isn't with me over whether or not to open carry...I'm with ya all the way on that. Your fight is out there....among the people, local government, local LE, anti-gun activists, etc...

    Meet & Greets are not sending the proper message. If its sending any message at all? It starts with the local news, then the state agencies pick it up, and if it's presented properly and popularly, it will be heard nationally. It does have to start somewhere...but not like I've been seeing it done. Let the media tell the story, and leave the video cameras and camera phones at home. Videoing your own events seems to forward, proud, and unprofessional. We're not advertising root canals either...smiles and hand shakes let the public know we are just one of them. We're just armed!

    I'm thinking about posting an ad in craigslist in my area to find other people wanting to open carry, and find out where they're heads are in all of this? This is a good thread, and I'm glad we can treat each other respectfully, and learn together.

  4. #313
    It's interesting, I've gone to a number of so-called "meet and greets," never seen any cops hanging around, never seen the media around, and no one was chanting pro-2A slogans. Worst of all, none of those meetings ever showed up on Youtube. I guess we're doing something wrong. All we did, was share some food and (soft) drinks, meet people we don't normally get to, since some of us came from the other side of the state, and have a good time.

    I put it to everyone, ANY meet and greet that ends up on Youtube, is likely in the minority of what happens at these pre-arranged meetings. For everyone you see on Youtube, there are probably at least 49 you don't see, where NOTHING happens, other that meeting new people, eating food, and having a good time.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  5. #314
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    Are we talking about meet and greets still or rallies and marches?

    I'm working on an awesome "find the differences" picture game, between a local meet and greet and the occupy movement. When I'm done I'll post it for you guys to enjoy finding the differences.

  6. #315
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    Al, you may have to explain the difference of the meet & greets vs. group gun walks. Because if the only difference between the two is that one takes a walk down the street, and the other one stays in one place, then we're only talking logistics aren't we? And I never said anything about "cops hanging around"? But what's wrong with that anyways? Don't you want them to learn what your all about? Why it is your doing what your doing? Because right now...I'm asking myself the same thing? If your activities are lawful, why are you worried about cops hanging around? Sounds like an opportunity to share information with them. To see where they're heads are in all of this? I thought you would want people to come and see that you and all your friends are openly carrying, so you can educate them? Otherwise, I don't get it? What is your purpose? Just to wear a gun on your hip down to the dairy queen for everyone to see, but no one shares who, what, where, why, or why not your doing it? Sounds like a group of people who want to be seen carrying a weapon openly, and waiting to be challenged about openly carrying?

    What is the meet & greet all about Al? Because, I'm not getting it obviously? And finally, I'm quite aware that not everyone that attends a meet & greet ends up on youtube. And I'm not saying that anything happened as far as the police, media, or anyone chanting any slogans. But it was obvious that these folks were looking for attention. Some of them got more than they wanted, and is possibly why it ended up on youtube. It's quite possible that we never see all the other videos because they weren't youtube "worthy"? Not enough excitement to share with everybody I guess?

    But what is wrong with having the police, the media, or other folks there? You don't want that kind of attention? Which is it? I'm confused? You want to be able to meet in groups carrying firearms in public places, but you don't want any attention? Can somebody please explain this to me without being angry about it? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just wanna get to the heart of this thinking of group carry, or meet & greets in public places while open carrying? Are you trying to pick a fight with LE or someone else that objects to what it is your doing? Or are you meeting in public to teach the uneducated about the 2nd amendment, and their rights to open carry? Which is it? Because I'm trying to figure this out? I've made suggestions to an open rally where you can legally carry and educate not only the public, but the news media, and LE as well? Until the rights to open carry in public become more public, or mainstream, we can expect adversity. It's gonna happen. When you say no cops or media were hanging around, I have to ask, "why not"? Use them to your advantage. If you don't want to be treated like the stereotypical "trailer trash, beer swilling, gun-toting rednecks; then change that perception before your agenda movement gets ruined. It's pretty simple to see, that there is opposition to it? Opposition among gun owning/open carry advocates even? Either your involved in the educational aspect of open carry, or your interested in being a smart ass, know it all, whose just waiting for someone, anyone to give them that opportunity to cry, "my rights are being trampled, my rights are being trampled"!!! Which guys are you? The ones who want to further the open carry movement, or the ones who want to be only know it all right fighters?

    I've been more than pleasant in trying to get some solid answers, and all I get is argument. I'm not here to argue. I'm here to learn, plan, execute a plan, and to share my knowledge with whom ever is willing to listen, in as much as I am here to learn from you? But I'm not here to fight for a right I already have. I'm here to ensure I don't ever lose it. And I feel it has to be handled delicately. Everyone's watching! Don't think for one minute, people are not paying attention. We are the frontline on this people. It's up to us to make sure it's handled correctly this time, and everytime to come. Not just in Ohio, but in Michigan, Alabama, or anywhere it's legal to open carry. So argueing with each other "gun loving owners", is fruitless, and what our opponents want us to do. They want us portrayed as trailer trash, rednecks. When you say that you don't care what they think, your being foolish in that thought process. I don't see LaPierre from the NRA dressed like Larry the Cable Guy to get his point across? Image is everything, when noticed positively. We don't want the message taking a back seat to our appearance do we? That's the best way I can describe it. I hope we can put aside individual agendas for the common good of all open carry citizens. Whether your from Vermont, Mississippi, or Oregon. Same plan, same message, same result. Thats what we really want isn't it? To be able to walk anywhere in the United States and be able to lawfully open carry a firearm for protection, right?

    I'm not here to debate, argue facts, or opinions. I couldn't care less what you do. But I do care what you do when it concerns my rights as well.

    So, can anyone, without being hostile, or hateful, please explain what the open carry agenda for a group walk, and/or a meet & greet are? Are you doing it for the right reasons, or for a reason to fight for a right? I'm hoping that y'all are the good guys, and want to share outside the circle for everyone to benefit from this? Because I'm not in it for the attention of my local group of buddies. I'm in it for a national movement in all the States where open carry is legal. But without a plan, these group gatherings are absolutely fruitless.

    What we want is to be able to carry openly, without harassment from LE.
    We want a message to be afforded to the public by each State's Atty. Gen. Office.
    We want citizens to understand that criminals don't open carry, only law abiding citizens do.
    We want a mandated method of handling the "law abiding citizen/LE confrontation". So both the officer and the citizen are safe, and that the citizen's rights are upheld.
    Etc....

    Without a plan, or a means to execute it, we are paddling upstream.

    Use the media to our advantage, not our disadvantage. Show the public that we are their neighbors, boy scout leaders, school teachers, doctors, factory workers, firefighters, store owners, and so on.... Show them that it's "alright" to own a gun, and to carry it for protection. We have to get the message to the people. The only way is the media. But we want the movement shown in a positive light. First impressions mean as much to the general public, as they do to us. It's quite possible that meet & greets, and other open carry group events may "not" be the way to get this message out. It may be too agressive, and I'll tell you why....

    I posted a poll on my facebook page. I asked how many people knew if it was legal to openly carry a loaded firearm here in Ohio? Out of about 20 responses, 2 people answered yes. One of them said she only answered yes, because everyone else answered no. So only 1 person in 20 actually answered correctly. That one person said they based their answer on the idea that it's okay for hunters to carry their guns openly, so it must be legal. So, out of 20 answers, no one really knew that they had an actual right to open carry in Ohio without a permit. Some of them understood that a person could carry a concealed firearm if they had a permit. But that was about all they knew. And this is just 20 random people on my facebook page.

    So I guess what I'm saying is this.... People don't have a clue what their gun rights are. And we have folks going around from town to town, in all parts of the country openly carrying in front of them. THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON PEOPLE! They just see a bunch of people, "possibly scarey people" walking the streets of their town, with a gun! They have kids in their town? What is going on? But I can see how they're ignorance could result in that phone call to 911.

    Knowing all this, is why I'm asking you if your into this open carry thing for the right reasons or not? Because it's quite obvious to me, that people just don't know? They don't know any of it, and nobody wants them to know. But they are the ones calling the police to you, the law abiding open carry citizen. So if you have an agenda, does your plan educate the public, or are you openly carrying to stir up "trouble" because you know your rights, and you get your kicks freaking out the unknowing?

    In any event, these are reasons I do not participate in open carry group walks, or meet & greets. I think they're more harmful to the end result, than helpful. Getting the media, LE, and others involved in an educational led gathering, is by far a better way to go. If you do it right, you may set a presedence for other open carry groups to follow, and media coverage will get people from both sides of the debate talking. But the one thing they will be talking about is the fact that it's legal to open carry, and that just because they see someone carrying a gun on their hip, it is not a reason to call LE. At least people won't be able to say, "I didn't know". And that's where I want to see my gun rights taken to.

    Just my opinion...you can all tell me to go straight to hell, and I'll see ya when you get there...But if your a hater just looking for a debate, or reason to fight over particulars, don't waste your time, I'd rather discuss ways to better my ability to open carry, then to bicker over group carrying, or meet & greets.

  7. #316
    ESD, I'm not trying to pick a fight. But I don't like the way OCers have been characterized, by some using the extreme examples that show up on Youtube. As far as who shows up for any meetings, I don't particularly care if cops and the news media show up or not. I was simply making an observation about the meetings I've been to.

    My comments about some of us OCers as "maybe we're doing it wrong" was meant as sarcasm. I do know of some planned OC meetings where the local LEOs put up a strong presence. I guess they thought it would turn into a blood bath or something, and they didn't want to miss out on the potential gun play, like Tackleberry did in Police Academy 1.

    As for the rest, I'll wait until tomorrow when I have time to read the entire message. I'm not really up for reading a book right now, I have to go to work soon.
    Big Gay Al: Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    An unarmed person speaking of the benefits of gun control is like a
    eunuch speaking about the benefits of sexual abstinence.

  8. #317
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    Smile

    Sorry Al, I do get on a rant at times

  9. #318
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    I'll take a crack as some of your questions...but I don't think you will ever understand the answers until you open your mind. Let me explain that first.

    So far in your descriptions of meet and greets and open carriers, you have depicted us as,

    1. smart ass "know it all"
    2. gun-toting locals shoving guns down their throats
    3. pissed off right fighter
    4. Billybobs from the trailer park
    5. gun-toting nuts
    6. stereotypical "trailer trash, beer swilling, gun-toting rednecks"

    These descriptions are primarily based off of youtube videos (from at least what I can tell of your research so far). You say you don't want an argument, or hate responses, but when you come on here with descriptions like that, what would you expect? A lot of us will take that personally insulting. Of the people in this forum, 1 person has met me, that is Santa. He can attest to how I dress, present myself, and how well educated and understanding I am. Of all the people that I have met at my meet and greets, I wouldn't describe anyone I have met as less than me. We get enough flak from the ill-informed media and anti-gun crowd, but from another gun owner? I expect much more. If you can change the image you are projecting of us, you will understand the concept behind meet and greets much easier.

    To try and answer some of your questions now. What is the goal of a meet and greet? You have narrowed it down to two answers, education or harrassment. Well, there are a lot more goals than that. Here are some of the previous goals of the last meet and greets I have attended:

    - Get to know other open carriers in my surrounding area that I have not met.
    - Clean up a local public shooting range.
    - Discuss the upcoming political battles of our local area.
    - Have a good time and eat good food.

    Would you be interested in a 45 minute video of me walking around introducing myself to 20 gentlemen and chit chatting? Or the 30 minutes video of me raking trash in a dust cloud sipping on my waterpack? Or would you get bored and move on to the 3 minute video of a man shouting at a police officer, where there is more action and more swearing? I understand there are very disturbing videos, but they do not represent the majority.

    Of these last few meet and greets, have we educated the public? Yes, we had people come up and ask us questions. Was that our goal? No, but we enjoyed speaking with the curious people. Did we educate the police? Don't you want them to learn what we are all about? Unfortunately we did not have any LE's come by (because the fictional story you stated between the mayor and chief doesn't happen in the majority of places), but we would have welcomed them as well. Our local LE's have had their problems with OC, and they have had extensive retraining in the last few years. 2 of the 3 cities are very pleasant to OC in now.

    You say you do not see the outcome, whether it is good or bad, because you believe we are not getting the message to the right people. I can say from personal experience, we are getting the message to the right people, for me it is the people in my town. The people who didn't know it was not only legal, but a good thing that we have a knowledgeable and level headed armed citizenship in the area.

    How are we presenting ourselves? Do I believe we should be all wearing a suit or formal outfit to represent gun owners? No. That in my mind is a misrepresentation of the common gun owner. We dress how we walk our life. In our last meet and greet, I met a man named Mark. He wore khakis, a nice t shirt, a sturdy belt and holstered a 1911 in a very nice leather holster. Another guy I met was named Brady. He wore a nice black jacket (Northface if I remember correctly) and jeans. Holstered an XDM in a nice kydex holster. Would I have preferred them in a suit? No. They represented the common gun owner, and open carrier, perfectly.

    You have great idea's on how to educate on a mass scale. Great ideas on how to educated on a much larger scale, but focused on the local area, than the 10-20 people that asked us questions at our meet and greet. That takes much more time, money, and effort, and is unrealistic to have all the time. Do we need them? YESSS, and it would be awesome to work together and get that done! Realistically though, it is much easier to print off 100 fliers that have been made for my state, post up on a forum, "Meet and greet 12/10/11 at XXX. We want to do YYY. Hope you can make it."

    I'd like to make a shout out to Tuts40. He is a member here who is doing his part all the time by talking with his representative. You like the big picture, but wanting to carry tomorrow, the next day, and the next day, is a small picture. I want my children to carry a firearm to protect our family and the family they will start. I want my grandchildren to learn how to safely operate a firearm. That is the big picture, and it takes small steps to get to a run, and a run to get to a leap. We have a lot of hurdles to overcome.

  10. #319
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    Firefighterchen,
    Thank you for your comments. Except for the open mind remark. I'm one of the most open-minded people you'll probably ever meet my friend. As for the descriptions I used in my comments...they were not from youtube, but rather some from right here on this forum, and some other forums. I know that most all of you ladies and gentlemen aren't dressing like Larry the Cable guy either. My point was merely that appearances do matter, and they do influence people's reactions especially to small groups.

    I think it's wonderful that you and a group of other like-minded individuals can get together to better your local area's perception of gun ownership. And I haven't narrowed anything down to just education or harrassment. So far we've hit on public perception, and appearances. There are several issues we could discuss when it comes to open carry. It just so happens that right now, I'm trying to figure out what the pros and cons are to group carry? And my supposed research, that you think comes primarily from youtube, couldn't be farther from the truth. I only used that as an example because it was something we've all likely seen at one point or another. I gathered most of my information from newspaper articles, forums both pro-gun & anti-gun, the Buckeye Firearms Association, "which is an award winning gun rights advocate", talking to local politicians, and police officers, and any articles in magazines that are enlightening to the law abiding gun owner.

    Do I know it all? Absolutely not! Do I believe in fighting for our constitutional rights? Absolutely! Do I believe that everyone who owns a gun should dress like a businessman, and wear a suit to support our cause? Y'all know better than that. But I do think that anyone attempting to represent us as a group to the media, should. That would be a pro-gun speaker, gun store owner, gun manufacturer, local politician, etc.... Why? Because we don't want the message diluted by distractions or affected by public opinion based on the way anyone dresses. And you know as well as I do, that people live to tear people down, just for the way they look! Sad, but true.

    Yeah I tend to look at the big picture. The reason for that is because we want to use anything and everything that works in one part of the country, to work everywhere else as well. I know that's a tough one, but it shows solidarity. One for all, all for one. If we've already had talks with our local opposition, then what are we left with? This forum, or reaching out to the rest of our gun owning bretheren?

    Retraining is probably the consensus nationally as a need for all aspects of LE to do. I mentioned in an earlier reply if not here, on another forum that retraining needs to happen not only for the LEO, but for the Dispatcher taking that 911 call. They need to determine whether a crime's been committed? Or if Joe Law Abiding Citizen is just walking across some parking lot somewhere? And someone just happened to see a firearm? Lets get our LEO up-to-date on these situations. And like I keep saying, "We need to get out to the masses, that openly carrying a firearm in public, is a legal activity, and that citizen's need to learn what their rights are, so we don't get our's trampled on.

    As for the time, money, and effort being unrealistic?...Well it's as easy as you and your OC friends making a few phone calls, and inviting a couple of gun rights advocates to your next town meeting. I'm telling you right now, alot of questions could be answered, as well as alot of fears calmed. Oh, and don't forget to call the local newspaper in to do an article on your town meeting. This is where it starts. This is where an education begins. This is where that advice on retraining 911 operators, and LEO is developed.

    As far as the video thing is concerned...I can see your kinda hung up on it? That's understandable, I referred to it probably more than I should have. Sorry for that. I would prefer to sit in on a town meeting for enlightenment, then to watch any first person video about open or concealed carry, where it all goes wrong with LE involved. It hurts us all as law abiding citizens, to see that kind of "selfish attention getting" going on.

    I would actually like to meet other open carry, or interested open carry men and women in my area too. Sharing information like we are here, is more interesting than the 3 minute video of a man shouting at a police officer, where there is more action and more swearing?

    A QUOTE FROM YOU TO ME..."You say you do not see the outcome, whether it is good or bad, because you believe we are not getting the message to the right people. I can say from personal experience, we are getting the message to the right people, for me it is the people in my town. The people who didn't know it was not only legal, but a good thing that we have a knowledgeable and level headed armed citizenship in the area."

    Firefighterchen, if the only place you ever plan on openly carrying your firearm is in your hometown, then this may work for you. I want to be able to carry anywhere in my state, and anywhere in any other open carry state. That's why we need a bigger shovel and bucket...to dig through all the garbage, to get to bottom of all this.

    YOUR QUOTE...I want my children to carry a firearm to protect our family and the family they will start. I want my grandchildren to learn how to safely operate a firearm. That is the big picture, and it takes small steps to get to a run, and a run to get to a leap. We have a lot of hurdles to overcome. I COULDN'T AGREE MORE MY FRIEND!!!

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Big Dawg View Post
    To the individual who said " Looks like a redneck " please do describe exactly what a redneck looks like so we all can be on the lookout for these people. As a side note please explain where the term redneck came from and when it was fist used IF you can. I'm betting you have not a clue !!!
    You know what a redneck is as well as I do. And about the bet...you'd lose.

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