The Open Carry Argument - Page 4
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by 65rambler View Post
    I personaly have not yet, but would have to say that people bring up police open carry. Now with that said how does one know they are police just becauce they have a badge it could be a security badge. I know michigan is a open carry but some people like to say now that you have a ccw/cpl you have to do that and do not have the right to open carry any longer.
    Those people would be fools.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Armstrong County, Pa
    Posts
    11
    To me, gun owners being the ones who get the most worked up about this particular issue. Most "regular folks" are surprised that OC is legal and then their mind moves on to another subject. We are our own worst enemies. Remember Jim Zumbo from Outdoor Life? He was a prominent gun writer who came out against "black rifles". What's the point of a high capacity assault rifle anyways? The shitstorm that followed, from guys like us, cause his dismissal from the magazine after 20+ years. He has not worked in the industry since.

    I have been OC'ing the majority of the time for 20+ years, the times I CC is when I feel it is appropriate for the surroundings or required by law. When I get up in the morning and get dressed my firearm is just another tool that I carry, the same as my cell phone, pocket knife and keys. Since the late 70’s through the late 80’s OC’ing was never looked at as an issue. Since the early 90’s the conditioning to hide our firearms has been stepped up. It wasn’t till the early 1990’s that the schools started teaching that guns are so evil that they will make their owners in to mass murderers. Most of us have been conditioned to hide their firearm to avoid “scaring the sheeple” because they are bad and only criminals carry guns or you should be ashamed to be seen wearing such an evil tool.

    Here are my reasons for OC’ing
    1. Speed and comfort.
    2. Don't have to modify the way I dress to accommodate the firearm.
    3. Political statement.
    4. and, it really pisses off the anti-gunners and some gun owners like nothing else!

    In my case, tactical advantage of surprise is given up for speed and comfort.
    I've had to use my firearm twice in my life since the service.
    The first time it almost cost me my life as I could not present fast enough to avoid getting stabbed in the chest. I got caught up in my cover garment.
    The second time I fired first because I was faster. I very seldom CC anymore.

    This debate has been raging for over 2yrs at www.pafoa.org


    An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
    Ed Stephan
    "Trust No Man Living with Power to Endanger the Public Liberty." - John Adams
    A man WITH a gun is a CITIZEN, A man WITHOUT gun is a SUBJECT

  4. I just wonder if there is a tactical advantage? Maybe if your OC then the guy would not have messed with you in the first place. Kind of like car or house alam makes the bad guy go someplace else.

  5. [QUOTE=charliej47;77870]I read this when it was first posted and have given it a lot of thought.

    I have to disagree with the over all post.

    If I have to draw my weapon then I will win or loose but the loss will be because I was not fast enough to defend myself or my family!~ [QUOTE]

    It's surely your right to disagree with the OP. Myself, I think he hit the nail on the head when it comes to OC.

    And I am compelled to comment on your belief that winning or losing depends only on how quickly your gun clears the holster.

    You might be the first to shoot, only to realize you were the only one ABLE to shoot. That is a loss.

    In many ways, if you "have" to draw your weapon there is no "winner". Unless you relish the thought of killing or maiming another human being.

    You may prevail... but you haven't "won" anything.

    Don't get me wrong - I carry for the same reasons you do. And I won't hesitate to draw and fire if the situation presents itself. But I will feel no sense of victory or glory if I prevail.

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Edwardsburg, Michigan
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by rayven View Post
    I
    When I open carry, I usually do so with a weapon without one in the chamber. For me, open carry is about the expression of my rights more than defense. When I do this, I also carry a fully concealed and fully loaded weapon as a backup. The best of both worlds of sorts.
    Why not one in the chamber. I understand you have a loaded back up but what if you go for the open carry? Then you are behind the curve. Or is the backup your normal weapon and you open carry in a non standard location. Remember in times of stress we fall back on our lowest lever of training.

    Just curious.
    Eric
    For freedom is never free someone else just picks up tab.
    A 9mm may expand but a .45acp won't shrink

  7. Quote Originally Posted by thedoc96 View Post
    Very well written piece!! I especially like the manner in which you address specific points without making concrete determinations of right and wrong. Probably the most well thought-out piece Ive read in quite a while.
    Here in the Great State of Indiana our laws do not specify OC or CC. My permit simply says "Permit To Carry a Handgun." After a bit of research I have learned there is nothing preventing OC in Indiana. But where I start to get miffed is when the police make up laws and give law abiding respectable citizens a hard time. I live in Northwest Indiana, just moved out of East Chicago. I have read accounts of police hassling and even arresting citizens who were engaging in no illegal activity. Why? Because they were armed!! Officers in these areas dont even bother to check whether the individual is licensed. They arrest them and then it comes to light that the individual was licensed to begin with!! Ok, well charges are dropped obviously, but that arrest stays on a persons record!!!
    Another one I love is police in NWI telling citizens they cannot carry loaded/chambered! Where did this one come from!?!? Once again, police officers making up laws as they go!
    My point in all of this babbling is simply this. Indiana technically allows OC. Is it worth an arrest for me to OC? Probably not. Its a sad state of affairs when the POLICE restrict the free exercise of our rights!! This is the only reason I dont carry OC in NWI.
    On April 20, 2009 The Wisconsin AG issued an advisory memorandum instructing ALL DA's and LEO's to STOP the harassment of the citizens for OC. The mere presence of a firearm is in and of itself, not a crime. There are now thousands of people carrying throughout the state of WI as that is our ONLY means of defense.

    I posted mainsail's entire argument to several different pro-gun forums, it is not going to disappear, and neither is OC.

    Load up, Holster up, and carry on!

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Close to Reading, PA
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by ecbaatz View Post
    Why not one in the chamber. I understand you have a loaded back up but what if you go for the open carry? Then you are behind the curve. Or is the backup your normal weapon and you open carry in a non standard location. Remember in times of stress we fall back on our lowest lever of training.

    Just curious.
    Honestly, I never gave it much thought. When I first started open carrying, I was nervous and somewhat afraid, so I never had one in the chamber. I guess it sort of became a habit after a while.

    I train equally with the OC and the CC gun, but prefer the OC because it's larger and feels better in my hand.

    Maybe I'll have to give my habits a second thought!

  9. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    The Open Carry Argument

    Deterrent Value:
    When Iím carrying concealed I feel like my Ďteethí are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value.
    We've seen the value of concealed carry for decades in the form of lower crime rates. It creates a higher degree of randomness for the criminal attacker who preys on others. If they don't know who is carrying, then it raises more doubts. I believe it was from John Lott's own data there were some trends of decreased violent crime and increased property crime after the passage of RTC laws. The "This Poo Ain't Worth It" maxim.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  10. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    The Open Carry Argument

    First One To Be Shot:
    There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or 'the first one shot' when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you're armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable.
    Because it has not yet happened does not mean the trend cannot begin. With 4-5 million concealed carry licensees, and fewer actually carrying, I suspect the number of folks openly carrying is much smaller still.

    Open carry, in most states, remains something that causes people to ooh and ah and view as something which is at least somewhat out of the ordinary. As people, law abiding and otherwise, begin to see open carry as normal, perhaps then criminals will begin to target and prey upon open carriers.

    Please note that I'm not saying it has happened, only that the possibility seems real enough to consider and weigh.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    The Open Carry Argument

    Surprise:
    Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe itís better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter.
    Surprise is a double edged blade. A criminal attacker has the element of surprise in that they get to choose their victim, time of day, lighting conditions, weather, comfortable shoes, clean underwear, and ideal attack location. However, the concealed carrier does have at least some ability to surprise a criminal attacker.

    Whether one is an open or concealed carrier, one can always choose to live in Condition Yellow and remain alert and aware of their surroundings and persons near them. Behavior tells a lot about a person. How they walk, how they carry themselves, where they look, do they appear confident, etc. This is true of criminals, armed citizens, and police officers. All three groups also have the ability to develop and exercise skills in spotting strength or weakness in others and to use that information accordingly.

    The open carrier, whether it's a uniformed police officer or an armed citizen, has no ability to surprise a criminal attacker with a weapon. The criminal attacker knows going in there's a weapon.
    Ken Grubb
    Puyallup, WA

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