The Open Carry Argument - Page 56
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Thread: The Open Carry Argument

  1. #551
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    For starters, don't carry in a position where an attacker has easier access to your firearm than you do. (5-7 o'clock)

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    Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.

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  3. I prefer the option to open carry or conceal. Either way the 2A says nothing about it.

  4. I do like having the option of OC or CC. Personally I would rather conceal carry. Would rather no one know I was carrying.

  5. I have always carried, even before it, or I was legally allowed, without incident so far. I never considered that OC would be a deterent, but my eyes have been opened. I must look at the local laws in my area and check the rules. Thanks for the other view point.

    Kick

  6. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Opencarry View Post
    I prefer the option to open carry or conceal. Either way the 2A says nothing about it.
    Sure it does. What do you think "bear arms" means?
    Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.--- John Quincy Adams
    Condensed Guide To Ohio Concealed Carry Laws

  7. That is lucid, intelligent, well thought-out essay on open carry that may fly in some parts of the US. I agree that most criminals never take resistance into consideration when planning or committing their crimes and that maybe, just maybe seeing your gun might deter them. I mean if I was a mugger and I had my chance at a person waling by themselves or a person walking with large dog, I'm going to go after the person by themselves. However, it might also drawl them to you like a magnet. Using the mugging thing again, if I'm desperate and your the only target I have, dog or not, I'm coming after you. Knowing you have a dog allows me to take that into consideration and how best to rid the threat so I can mug you. By openly showing them your gun you are showing them who is a threat and that you should be taken out first. So, while I get your point, I think the element of surprise in cc is a much better option.

    Thanks for a great post.

  8. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metricmetal View Post
    That is lucid, intelligent, well thought-out essay on open carry that may fly in some parts of the US. I agree that most criminals never take resistance into consideration when planning or committing their crimes and that maybe, just maybe seeing your gun might deter them. I mean if I was a mugger and I had my chance at a person waling by themselves or a person walking with large dog, I'm going to go after the person by themselves. However, it might also drawl them to you like a magnet. Using the mugging thing again, if I'm desperate and your the only target I have, dog or not, I'm coming after you. Knowing you have a dog allows me to take that into consideration and how best to rid the threat so I can mug you. By openly showing them your gun you are showing them who is a threat and that you should be taken out first. So, while I get your point, I think the element of surprise in cc is a much better option.

    Thanks for a great post.
    Nobody who actually open carries has ever said it's a sure thing that their OC'ed weapon will always deter. We believe it has the strong potential to deter, but acknowledge that it's not a sure thing.

    On the other hand, concealed carry has absolutely zero potential to deter until after the threat is made apparent by the bad guy, at some point between when showing your weapon would be considered brandishing and when it would be appropriate, which in some cases might be a very fine line. In many, if not most cases, the threat is made apparent by some sort of attack already being commenced, making getting at your weapon that much more difficult as you're defending against blows or grappling while trying to draw at the same time, possibly with multiple attackers.

    The "element of surprise" that many CC-only carriers seem to think is a positive can necessarily only occur from the perp's perspective after they've chosen the CC'er as their victim because the CC'er looked just as defenseless as anybody else.

    The same element of surprise from the perp's perspective regarding an OC'er is when he/she is sizing them up as a potential victim and is surprised with the sight of a means of defense that he/she may decide they're not up to the task of taking on. If they do decide to pursue the attack anyway, the OC'er has faster and easier access to his/her weapon than a CC'er does, so tactically, it's a more sound decision to OC all the way around.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  9. Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    The "element of surprise" that many CC-only carriers seem to think is a positive can necessarily only occur from the perp's perspective after they've chosen the CC'er as their victim because the CC'er looked just as defenseless as anybody else.

    The same element of surprise from the perp's perspective regarding an OC'er is when he/she is sizing them up as a potential victim and is surprised with the sight of a means of defense that he/she may decide they're not up to the task of taking on. If they do decide to pursue the attack anyway, the OC'er has faster and easier access to his/her weapon than a CC'er does, so tactically, it's a more sound decision to OC all the way around.
    Blues
    I get it. Everyone knows about the Tueller rule so perhaps advertising your gun will prevent anything from happening. However I go back to if there's a will there's a way. When I hear about cops struggling with perps who went for the cops gun or got the gun away from the cop, I think it's because it was there in plain site. I think if we were both in the 7-11 and a perp comes in to rob the place or do bodily harm, you advertising that you have a gun makes you the first target. I get to save the day because of the element of surprise. I appreciate your point of view, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree... and let's hope we never have to find out who's right.

  10. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metricmetal View Post
    I get it. Everyone knows about the Tueller rule so perhaps advertising your gun will prevent anything from happening. However I go back to if there's a will there's a way. When I hear about cops struggling with perps who went for the cops gun or got the gun away from the cop, I think it's because it was there in plain site. I think if we were both in the 7-11 and a perp comes in to rob the place or do bodily harm, you advertising that you have a gun makes you the first target. I get to save the day because of the element of surprise. I appreciate your point of view, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree... and let's hope we never have to find out who's right.
    There's really no argument against at least one premise of my position - that OC has the potential to deter where CC has absolutely no potential to deter.

    I CC'ed for ~30 years before considering arguments made in this specific sub-forum that eventually changed my outlook on the issue. A change in law in my state made the decision to implement my new outlook about three years ago without fear of harassment by law enforcement both easier and safer. I used to drive and guard for an armored car company and open carried every day (or night) that I worked, so getting used to it wasn't an issue once the law supported my ability to make the decision for myself off the job. Since OC'ing regularly, I have had one store owner ask me to cover it up. It was in a music store where I had just spent a couple hundred bucks and was finishing up with the cashier. As the cashier handed me my receipt, I politely said to the owner that I was just leaving, and oh by the way, I won't be back. That's the extent of negativity I've encountered for my OC'ed weapon.

    It doesn't register with me that someone would "get" to "save the day" by drawing and/or firing their weapon, no matter how they carry it. My advertising that I have a gun may just as well make the 7-11 robber reconsider his choice of places to rob as to give you the opportunity to "get" to "save the day," and if that were the case, neither one of us would ever know because the robber would just go elsewhere, or possibly hang around until I left, in which case you would "get" to make your best play. I too hope we never have to find out in any kind of gunfight who's tactics are better, but if I ever do have to defend myself with my weapon, it sure as heck won't be because I "got" to do it, it will be because I *had* to do it, and it is very unlikely statistically-speaking that how I carry my weapon will have a thing in the world to do with the scenario unfolding.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  11. #560
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    If you're hoping to "save the day", you likely watch far too much TV and need a serious reality check. get some serious tactical training and speak to some people who've actually been there. 'Saving the day', though it was probably part of all our boyhood fantasies, is absolutely not something you should be looking forward to. I'm not one of those who advises against coming to the aid of others. That's a personal decision everyone must make for themselves, and I for one am for it. But being involved in a self defense shooting or a shooting in the defense of others is an event that will have an enormous impact on your life. Based on past incidents, there is an extremely high likelihood that much of that impact will be negative, possibly for many years afterward. While I'd be lying if I said there was nothing of that little boy left in me that would love to be a conquering hero, i know enough to know that even a well justified shooting is a tumultuous event in anyone's life, and it really isn't something a rational adult should be looking forward to.
    .
    God, will there ever be enough of this argument? Do you lose the element of surprise? Yes. Is there a deterrence factor? Yes. Is there another side to that argument? Absolutely. There's another side to practically every argument.
    .
    There's a guy I met who teaches tactical courses at a site in south Ohio who told me that most of the concealed carriers that come to his facility have no element of surprise whatsoever. Participants are told to bring their holsters and he said many show up with a belt holster. They're told to switch to their concealed holster. Invariably the first day on the range everybody has their clothes open and stuffed behind their holsters so their gun is exposed and at the ready. This is completely out of sync with how they'll carry out on the street, so they're told to cover up and conceal just as they would on a daily basis. This is where the guy said the comedy began, because it was obvious almost none of them had ever practiced drawing from concealment. Even those who had practiced it before still had difficulty clearing and drawing their guns in most cases, and it was extremely rare to see anything that could be generally described as a fast draw. In short, he said, there is no such thing as a fast draw from concealment, and there is no element of surprise unless you can do it in a manner that the assailant can't recognize you're drawing a gun, or you can draw in a manner that the assailant can't see you doing it. This was of extreme importance in close range encounters, because the assailant has a far higher ability to interrupt the draw and aim. I personally recommend learning point shooting for this reason, but that's another topic. But he gave me an interesting perspective on the element of surprise as it pertains to carry methods. And lest anyone consider me biased, I prefer to carry concealed 99% of the time, but for other reasons.
    Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.--- John Quincy Adams
    Condensed Guide To Ohio Concealed Carry Laws

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