Ordered to ground at gunpoint for open carrying by cleveland heights ohio police - Page 21
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Thread: Ordered to ground at gunpoint for open carrying by cleveland heights ohio police

  1. #201
    LT
    My intention was not to be ridiculous but to express my opinion. I appreciate that you are able to keep the discussion civilized & and an intelligent level. The reason of why OC carry has been frowned upon extensively was brought to the podium hence my response. Personally, I don't care if someone open carries, but depending on the environment I am vigilant about the person who is.

    Your say deterrence, yes but that same the "act or process of discouraging actions or preventing occurrences by instilling fear or doubt or anxiety" is instilling fear or doubt or anxiety in many people as to the intention of the carrier. Yes a BG may move on or wait until the OC has left but, if your BG were to proceed with his plan the OC would be his 1st, premeditated target. Someone CC would have a tactical advantage if warranted.
    I agree with you that I would rather deter the crime from happening to me in the first place than to defend myself after the criminal act has begun, but unfortunately most of the general population has trust issues with someone with a gun... especially since background searches are not required for private sales.

    Concealed carry, is the compromise to carrying your weapon without freaking out the general public. We on this forum all know that the gun itself is not evil but the user may be and that is what makes the general public uneasy.

    I wasn't aware that I was "bashing" someone who open carries. I was expressing my opinion on the why in this day & age it is not worth it to OC. It reminds me of a similar debate on smoking, and the person who liked smoking in a restaurant which then had no smoking restrictions. So where are we with that? We can't smoke in restaurants which do not offer a "smoking section" if any. Some places you can't smoke in bars & now you can't even smoke at an outdoor stadium at a football game.

    You ask a good question, "How do you propose to change that attitude if the only image the public gets of guns is what is presented to them by the anti-gun groups and the anti-gun media?"
    I'm sure that many will not like the answer. Licensing, registration, extensive background checks & severe penalties. If the public feels an individual is qualified to have a weapon and that the owner has been certified both capable of possessing one, the general consensus might change. Yes the issue of how would the general public know unless they wear their ID on their chest still exists but then penalties would have to be in place to deter unlicensed carriers.

    I do not like the idea of having to pay the government for the government's permission in order to exercise the right to self protection. I wasn't happy having to pay for my CCW. Being ex Navy I avoided having to pay more money for a firearms safety course. I also hated paying to register my car, having to take a driving test to get licensed, paying the RIDICULOUS annual "personal property tax" on a car I paid cash for. I hate the fact that I have to pay all sorts of taxes just to have a central station monitored alarm system on my house. They charge for water ( a minimum usage even if you use none) They charge you transfer taxes when you sell your house, and the list goes on.
    Bottom line in this world the government is so far up our butts, it's impossible not to expect to pay them for everything!

    No I do not feel a state should prohibit more people than the Federal government already does from carrying a firearm I had enough of that in NYC, but then the federal gov is lax if they do not feel someone who can't make the proper judgment regarding driving & drinking be permitted a deadly weapon.

    I read the below statement and I hope you are just being facetious.
    My feeling is that if the government feels a person is unsafe to carry a firearm in public because they have committed a criminal act, than the government should not allow that person to walk around in public at all. A gun is only a tool. A person is either a criminal or not. If they are too dangerous to carry a gun, then they should be too dangerous to be walking around freely in public.

    So, to sum it up back to the original question, Why are people afraid of other people that open carry?
    Because they don't carry, can't carry, and because they are scared of the guy carrying because he could have bought his gun at a flea market with 0 background checks & then may or may not be a maniac who open fires at a Walmart not because he's robbing the place, but because he feels like it. Or both!

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by cabrera View Post
    I wasn't aware that I was "bashing" someone who open carries.
    The first sentence in your post called me nuts and insane.

    i have to say. oc is simply nuts. i know it is your right, but it is insane to do so.
    Anyway.... maybe you didn't mean it to sound that way.

    As a person who open carries every day and who has open carried across several states, and in such liberal slanted places as Seattle and Vancouver, WA, I can tell you what my universal experience has been.

    95 to 99% of the public don't even notice. Of the 1 to 5% remaining the do notice:

    About 75% are either completely supportive and will let you know they support you or are at least curious and will ask about it. The curious folks that ask about it tend, by vast majority, to go away with a positive education experience. "Wow, I didn't know that! Cool!"

    The remaining 25% of the 1 to 5% that notice the gun in the first place are visibly and/or verbally against the gun. Of those, only 1 or 2 will call 911.

    People are against a lot of things. Some are against jews. Some are against black people. Myself, I happen to be against the loud thumping music from the car behind me at the stoplight. None of us feels comfortable in our environment 100% of the time. Yes, sometimes the "offensive" person can change their behavior - the guy with the music can turn it down. Sometimes the "offensive" person cannot simply change their religion or change the color of their skin. The fact is I don't feel the need to change the way that I carry my gun (which I believe is not only the most effective way to protect myself and family from crime and also is a way which is more likely to deter crime rather than introduce a gunfight into a crime being committed) because the sight of an inanimate object carried in a holster on a belt scares a minority of the people out there. In addition, the black people did not obtain the equality they deserve and now enjoy simply by compromising and sitting in the back of the bus. Their actions initially disturbed a lot of people.

    This theory of being targeted in a crime first because of the gun has NEVER proven itself to be true. The people who have been singled out of a crowd and shot during a crime who have been carrying guns also have been wearing uniforms. They have been cops (Lakewood police shooting at the coffee shop) or armored car security guards (Wal Mart, somewhere here in Washington). There has never been a case reported where an armed civilian not wearing a uniform has been shot first in a convenience store, bank, etc. (Except now, maybe they guy in COSTCO in Nevada - he was shot by police, but we don't know the circumstances behind that and it was not during a crime being committed.)

    Studies have been done where felons have been interviewed, and the majority of felons themselves admit that it is just not worth it to tangle with an armed citizen. It's too easy to go down the block or wait a couple minutes for an unarmed(at least visibly) citizen to come along. It is also much easier and safer for the criminal to obtain their guns in a sale or to snatch an unattended gun than it is to take one from the holster of an armed citizen.

  4. #203
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    +1 LT, very eloquent and to the point. NOW if we could only get our SC Legislators to agree and pass/amend our State Statute to allow OC anytime/anywhere.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

  5. #204
    LT
    My intention was not to come off as insulting, I suppose that in reading back it a can be interpreted that way, my apologies..
    Like I said, personally I have no objection to OC, my response was to answer why people are so against it.
    I choose to CC to avoid the BS. I do open carry in rural areas where I know people accept the sight of my sidearm as easily as carrying my Ipod.
    In the more urban/suburban areas I do not want to deal with a "concerned citizen" who calls 911 and an overreacting LEO with an itchy trigger.
    That said, You make a good argument. Unfortunately the sheep in the more urban areas of the country will never accept it.

    I have had handguns since I was 21. I trained my wife & now my son to shoot. My wife was dead against carrying. She said she didn't need to carry since I did. I explained that there may be a time when I either won't be there or am incapable of protecting her & now she carries. When I lived in NJ a buddy of mind applied for a CCW. He was then 25, clean record, honorable military discharge, squeaky clean not even a traffic ticket. He was denied, he appealed twice. Still denied. The reasoning was they saw no reason for him to carry a weapon. It's funny how the same politicians who pass laws restricting all have CCW!
    Open carry argument would never fly there. That is why there is such a high crime rate in areas that restrict guns - but they just don't get it!

    People are against a lot of things. But in your circumstance by your own admission the amount of people against OC where you are is minimal. So changing the way that you carry your gun would not benefit you greatly. Would you feel the same if you were consistently being detained by LEOs who are called everywhere you go?

    BTW don't kid yourself, I moved down south a few years ago and although on legally & on paper black people have obtained the equality they have a right to. In reality it isn't so. I have seen stuff down here that just "ain't right"! But that's for another forum.

    It seems that in urban areas, there will always be the offended group who will never accept an armed citizen. They are frightened sheep who expect the police to protect them. Which we all know is an impossibility.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by cabrera View Post
    People are against a lot of things. But in your circumstance by your own admission the amount of people against OC where you are is minimal. So changing the way that you carry your gun would not benefit you greatly. Would you feel the same if you were consistently being detained by LEOs who are called everywhere you go?
    I would feel even more strongly for open carrying. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, both foreign AND DOMESTIC. I have been threatened with arrest by the police. Their illegal actions won't deter me. If we don't stand up for our rights, we will all find ourselves living in "New Jersey".

  7. #206
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    I think Navy LT has said it all. Excellent answer. Strong Constitutional and Gun supporter. I salute you!
    Maybejim

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    What you say isn't as important as what the other person hears

  8. #207
    Well fellows (and gals), I have read some very good arguments throughout this thread for the merits of OC or CC, or both. It is difficult to tell someone they are wrong. Personal preference should be what dictates whatever method you choose (within your state's current laws.) I think we should have the right, nationwide, to do either. It is going to be up to us to convince our government to allow us to do so. I am an old fart with barely enough strength to defend myself against some of these young toughs. I carry my weapon(s) for just that reason. I read a line somewhere that said, "Don't start a fight with an old man who can no longer fight. He will kill you!" I may not kill him but he will damn sure be hurting! As for being confrontational with the police, no, I will not do that. I have already talked to our Sheriff about OC and don't forsee any problems. I will try to handle things in a civilized manner. As for OC, if I see you OCing, I will walk over and shake your hand and have a conversation with you. I will not be afraid to do so. I dare say others would probably join the conversation. I have learned some valuable things by reading this thread. Some of the comments are emotionally charged, some are carefully thought out and presented well. Others, I am not sure the writers even know what they were trying to say but at least they had the privilege of doing so. I'm looking forward to reading more comments!

  9. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by knighted4 View Post
    Seems to me that alot of open carry people try to bait the police...Why else would you carry a video camera?
    I carry a camera with me, but only because it's on my cell phone.It takes pics and video.

  10. #209
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    In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned a traffic stop in CA as well as a Border Patrol check point and a second stop in TX. Point one if you are confrontational you can expect problems, LEO's have a difficult job, when they receive a call it is usually a note of a problem, they have to investigate safely and all officers wish to go home to their familys at night. A man with a gun call is just that, even in OC states, again it is knowledge that protects both them and us. Any LEO who receives a call of a man with a gun would be remiss not to investigate at a minimum. The recent Madison town call of men with guns was not taken care of in a professional manner, OC state, folks sitting minding there own business caller even stated they were not brandshing just sitting talking, police did overreact and individual who placed the call even stated (after being informed of OC) she did not have a problem, all charges were dropped except disorderly conduct (police chief). Even this could have been avoided had the Chief been aware of his States own laws (unless he has issues with enforcement of the law and not his personal issues). Peace, Knowledge, God Bless America and 2nd Amendment.

    PS: It is innocent till proven guilty not visa versa.

  11. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare45 View Post
    In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned a traffic stop in CA as well as a Border Patrol check point and a second stop in TX. Point one if you are confrontational you can expect problems, LEO's have a difficult job, when they receive a call it is usually a note of a problem, they have to investigate safely and all officers wish to go home to their familys at night. A man with a gun call is just that, even in OC states, again it is knowledge that protects both them and us. Any LEO who receives a call of a man with a gun would be remiss not to investigate at a minimum. The recent Madison town call of men with guns was not taken care of in a professional manner, OC state, folks sitting minding there own business caller even stated they were not brandshing just sitting talking, police did overreact and individual who placed the call even stated (after being informed of OC) she did not have a problem, all charges were dropped except disorderly conduct (police chief). Even this could have been avoided had the Chief been aware of his States own laws (unless he has issues with enforcement of the law and not his personal issues). Peace, Knowledge, God Bless America and 2nd Amendment.
    Sounds like the Chief of Police needs to be replaced, and the officers retrained or fired.
    Maybejim

    Life Member NRA
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    What you say isn't as important as what the other person hears

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