Ordered to ground at gunpoint for open carrying by cleveland heights ohio police - Page 4
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Thread: Ordered to ground at gunpoint for open carrying by cleveland heights ohio police

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Whether the author of the post was trying to get the police's attention or not, it is responses like these that keep me from open carrying. I, for one, don't want anyone to know that I'm carrying and have never heard of anything like this happening to someone who was carrying concealed.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.

    Benjamin Franklin

  3. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Bellingham, WA, USA

    Smile Hey, Tatt Man!

    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Whether the author of the post was trying to get the police's attention or not, it is responses like these that keep me from open carrying. I, for one, don't want anyone to know that I'm carrying and have never heard of anything like this happening to someone who was carrying concealed.
    Well, I doubt that anyone knows that better than you do, Tatters me lad.

    Incidentally, how goes the recovery? Did they ever catch the scumbag who shot you?
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #33
    Why is it when an OC'er gets a rough ride from LEO's, there is a multitude of gunners that jump into the fray with statements that are disparaging to the OC'er, that somehow the LEO's not knowing the law or attempting to enforce "their version or interpretation" of the law is the OC'er fault?

    There was one statement to the fact that events like this is why one member here would not OC…proof that government intimidation works…..afraid to exercise a right because you are afraid to be hassled.

    This is not the OC’er fault. That the LEO’s do not know the law or overstep the law is not the OC’ers responsibility. If this OC’er knows the laws, carries a copy of the laws and records the encounter…good on ya brother. It is obvious that a number of people here have no idea what their rights are, and more to the point, only cares to what applies to their particular carry or shooting habits. It is important to know what the LEO’s may and may not do, and assert your rights, if you do not assert your rights, by failure to assert, it can be construed that you consented to forfeit your rights.. The police DO NOT have the right to detain simply for open carry, where OC is legal. The LEO’s overstepped their Constitutional and legal boundaries here, and the OC’er is blamed by gun owners.

    Do we really want to defend LEO’s that trampled freedom fighters constitutional right to carry?

    What in the hell I’m I missing here, where is the support for the 2nd amendment rights of the OP that was OC’ing. Have we become politically correct sheep that the legal open carry of a pistol or revolver is cause for piling on the OC’er? Do you truly believe that carry of arms is only the purview of CCW holders or only in deer camp?

    What will be the response when one day CC is not condoned by so call politically correct “responsible gunners”? Will we see people jumping in and accusing the CC holder of entrapment, baiting the LEO’s or accusations of just being plain irresponsible for CC’ing? How about when they revoke your CCW, who will be standing behind you?

    Either assert your rights or we will lose them, this gentlemen had his 2nd and 4th amendment rights violated and all some can do is dump him. In my mind he is asserting OUR rights.

    This reminds me of “The Hangman” I hope all will forgive me for posting it, but it seems very appropriate in this case. I would ask that each time the Hangman refers to an ethnic group think of a gun right or particular firearm that the government wants to outlaw.

    The Hangman
    by Maurice Ogden

    Stanza 1
    Into our town the Hangman came, smelling of gold and blood and flame. And he paced our bricks with a diffident air. And built his frame on the courthouse square.
    The scaffold stood by the courthouse side, only as wide as the door was wide; a frame as tall, or little more, than the capping sill of the courthouse door.
    And we wondered, whenever we had the time, who the criminal, what the crime, that Hangman judged with the yellow twist of knotted hemp in his busy fist.
    And innocent though we were, with dread we passed those eyes of buckshot lead; till one cried: "Hangman, who is he for whom you raise the gallows-tree."
    Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye, and he gave us a riddle instead of reply: "He who serves me best," said he, "Shall earn the rope on the gallows-tree."
    And he stepped down, and laid his hand on a man who came from another land and we breathed again, for another's grief at the Hangman's hand was our relief.
    And the gallows-frame on the courthouse lawn by tomorrow's sun would be struck and gone. So we gave him way, and no one spoke, out of respect for his hangman's cloak.
    Stanza 2
    The next day's sun looked mildly down on roof and street in our quiet town and, stark and black in the morning air, the gallows-tree on the courthouse square.
    And the Hangman stood at his usual stand with the yellow hemp in his busy hand; with his buckshot eye and his jaw like a pike and his air so knowing and businesslike.
    And we cried: "Hangman, have you not done, yesterday, with the alien one?" Then we fell silent, and stood amazed: "Oh, not for him was the gallows raised."
    He laughed a laugh as he looked at us: "Did you think I'd gone to all this fuss to hang one man? That's a thing I do to stretch the rope when the rope is new."
    Then one cried, "Murderer!" One cried, "Shame!" And into our midst the Hangman came to that man's place. "Do you hold," said he, "With him that was meant for the gallows-tree?"
    And he laid his hand on that one's arm, and we shrank back in quick alarm, and we gave him way, and no one spoke out of fear of his hangman's cloak.
    That night we saw with dread surprise the Hangman's scaffold had grown in size. Fed by the blood beneath the chute the gallows-tree had taken root;
    Now as wide, or a little more, than the steps that led to the courthouse door, as tall as the writing, or nearly as tall, halfway up on the courthouse wall.
    Stanza 3
    The third he took — we had all heard tell — was a usurer and infidel, And: "What," said the Hangman, "have you to do with the gallows-bound, and he a Jew?"
    And we cried out: "Is this one he who has served you well and faithfully?" The Hangman smiled: "It's a clever scheme to try the strength of the gallows-beam."
    The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched out comfort hard and long; and "What concern," he gave us back, "Have you for the doomed - the doomed and black?"
    The fifth.The sixth. And we cried again: "Hangman, Hangman, is this the man?" "It's a trick," he said, "that we hangmen know for easing the trap when the trap springs slow."
    And so we ceased, and asked no more, as the Hangman tallied his bloody score; and sun by sun, and night by night, the gallows grew to monstrous height.
    The wings of the scaffold opened wide till they covered the square from side to side; and the monster cross-beam, looking down, cast its shadow across the town.
    Stanza 4
    Then through the town the Hangman came and called in the empty streets my name - and I looked at the gallows soaring tall and thought: "There is no one left at all for hanging, and so he calls to me to help pull down the gallows-tree." And I went out with right good hope to the Hangman's tree and the Hangman's rope.
    He smiled at me as I came down to the courthouse square through the silent town, and supple and stretched in his busy hand was the yellow twist of the hempen strand.
    And he whistled his tune as he tried the trap and it sprang down with a ready snap— and then with a smile of awful command he laid his hand upon my hand.
    "You tricked me, Hangman!" I shouted then. "That your scaffold was built for other men. And I no henchman of yours," I cried, "You lied to me, Hangman, foully lied!"
    Then a twinkle grew in his buckshot eye: "Lied to you? Tricked you?" he said, "Not I. For I answered straight and I told you true: The scaffold was raised for none but you.
    "For who has served me more faithfully than you with your coward's hope?" said he, "And where are the others that might have stood side by your side in the common good?"
    "Dead," I whispered; and amiably "Murdered," the Hangman corrected me; "First the alien, then the Jew... I did no more than you let me do."
    Beneath the beam that blocked the sky, none had stood so alone as I - and the Hangman strapped me, and no voice there cried "Stay" for me in the empty square.

    Make no mistake, for gun owners, we all need to support each other and all of our 2nd amendment rights, or in the case of The Hangman, one day we will be standing with only single shot .22’s and they will come for them. Wake up people; we cannot only support the 2nd as it applies to our own guns or thoughts. That we all stick together and support OC where legal is mandatory in my book.

    To freedom fighter 777 ,“Carry On” amigo, come on out to Utah one of these days, or better yet Arizona I'll open carry with you.

    Last edited by .45acp; 07-16-2009 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Formatting

  5. #34

    Better the devil you know?

    I carry openly, and I see the police' point of view. Most people I know, especially police officers and their families, are literaly scared to death of guns; I know I am. I was in a hardware store today, and the lady at the checkout referred to the huge Hi Point .45ACP on my hip as a new toy. autobots are toys. speed boats, ATVs, and Barbie dolls are toys. A cocked and locked .45, with the ability to punch a hole in you the size of your fist, which is the only thing it was designed for in the first place, well, if this is nothing more than a toy to someone, they have absolutely no business possessing one.

    Any time I leave my house, I am packing. And as far as I'm concerned, every peace officer has an obligation to ascertain whether I am qualified and have the right to carry that weapon. We consider our rights to be God-granted; in the US the 2nd Amendment is quite clear on that. but there have to be conditions, just as in anything else. One is that you have not VOLUNTARILY given up that right by commiting a crime you know will lose you said right. Another is that you are in control of yourself to the point you are able to make rational decisions.

    There are meth addicts in my neighborhood, many of whom have no criminal record. Same as everywhere else. Constitutional right or not, it is illegal to carry a firearm into a bar or anyplace that serves alcohol. I cannot tell just by looking whether a person just got out of prison for drive-bys, has been running on meth for ten days, or just got the hell beat out of him in a bar fight; not everyone at a bar is drunk. what I can generally tell by looking is whether that person is carrying a gun, especially if it is in plain sight. What better place to hide it? Am I to simply assume that that individual is not a threat because they have their gun in plain sight?

    I have been detained by the police while they checked me out to see if I was, indeed, fit to carry my pistol. I don't mess withthe police; they ALL carry guns, and they have way less rules about using them than I do. They only shoot to kill; anyone who survives a police shooting has God looking after them. Because the cops are OUT THERE, doing what amounts to as insane a job as there is. The little old lady you pulled over to tell her she has a tail light out is as likely to put a .44 between your eyes as the gang banger who just shot three rival gangsters in a drive-by.

    So how can I protest when a police officer, seeing me carrying a deadly, mostly under-rated weapon, elects to see just what I am up to? Harassment? What if it was someone else: a wannabe banger out to "make his bones"? Or a meth-head who hasn't slept or eaten for two weeks and sees a monster behind every tree? A guy who was escorted out of his house by the police over an argument with his wife or girlfriend, on his way home with a borowed gun to "show her who's the boss"? The Son of Sam? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want those people running the streets armed to the teeth. They are the only reason I strap on my hand cannon every day, whether I go out or not. I have had a 30.06 shoved in my face, been jumped in a crowded park by three guys with knives, and looked down the barrel of a 12 guage. Every time, I was wishing a cop had got to the other guy first. My gun came out two of those times (I took care of the knife guys with nunchucks, though I did have a Beretta in my back pocket). The guys with the guns had a sudden turn of heart, and nobody got hurt. So much for the old "If I have to pull my gun, someone's getting shot" line of thought.

    When a cop stops me to check out whether I should be carrying a loaded gun, I say "Thank you". That person put his or her life on the line to protect MY family from what I easily could have been. Maybe not directly, but they were covering someone's butt at great personal risk to themselves. The guy in the video got his gun back in spite of his disrespect for the people trying to keep their town safe from the whackos. He's lucky they didn't run him in for resisting arrest, verbally abusing a police officer, obstructing justice, or simply as a "person of interest" in a different crime. Or, worst case scenario, hand his gun back loaded and then shoot him for "pulling it on a police officer".

    Cops don't make the laws; their job is to make sure we all make it home every day without some nut-job taking us out for our shoes, money, jewelry, or just because they didn't like the way we looked at them. I've seen people knifed over a spilled glass of beer. Contrary to popular opinion, most cops are not Nazi faschist pigs out to bully the average person around just because they can; some are, but most of the ones I know are good, decent, helpful people who'd give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. Don't make more of this than it is; they were just doing their job, and if the video guy had turned out to be a psycho planning to take out a Denny's, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If you're looking for an enemy who wants to take your guns, check out Jorack Obiden. Those guys scare the hell out of me. By the way, I'm not any sort of cop, just a guy who knows his priorities. Send me some .45 ACPs.

  6. #35
    "First they came..." by Martin Niemoller (1976 version)

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    Then they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not protest;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out for me.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  7. #36
    Hey .45ACP, here's an explanation of my opinion:

    I am NOT an oppenent of open carry.

    I am NOT going to stand up for a rogue police officer's actions.

    But neither will I instantly go blasting some officers for "JBT"-like actions based on a cell phone video that is blacked out.

    Here's my take on the incident. We have a guy that seems pretty intent on drawing attention to himself. Open carriers do not tend to do that. I draw this conclusion based on the fact that a video is rolling at the exact instant a police cruiser comes into view. What happened PRIOR to a call to the police? I find it hard to believe that a guy is just walking down the sidewalk videoing his surroundings, with legal opinions in his pocket, doing nothing else.

    It looks to me that the author of this post may have done something to warrant police attention in the first place. Not saying he was breaking the law or that the officers were correct in their behavior. Who's to say he wasn't just TRYING to be conspicuous. Perhaps he started pacing in front of a known liberal's house. Perhaps he was jogging and his gun fell out. All I can say is that I won't instantly take into someone's corner that doesn't give the full story.

    I'm further led to believe that things aren't quite above-board because he's very insistent that the officers get the laws and opinions out of his pocket. Who carries that stuff around on a regular basis? I don't, because I don't think I'll ever give an officer a reason to harrass me.

    Long story short, the cops were out of line. But there is more than just a slight chance that they were provoked. I can't believe that this guy is just Mr. Upstanding Citizen in this case.
    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

  8. #37
    Oh, and follow that up with this.........

    The guy has posted a total of 2 posts in this entire USA Carry arena.
    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Close to Reading, PA
    Regardless of whether the OP was trying to bait the police, knowing that the negative encounter was about to happen, the police still acted with total disregard to the rights of the individual.

    If the OP had been absolutely belligerent, coming up to the cops saying "You can't touch me, I'm within my rights as a citizen of the state of Ohio, so there, pig!", the cops STILL couldn't do anything.

    It's a question of rights. The polite person and the impolite person have the same rights, and the police MUST obey the laws and rights of everyone.

    So in this case, the police had no reasonable, articulable suspicion that anything illegal was going on. Without that RAS, they had absolutely no right to make the guy get on the ground and disarm him. They didn't even have the right to demand his ID.

    So even the most rude carriers among us should have the same legal treatment from LEOs. The Ohio cops stepped over the line, severely violated the inherent rights of the OP, and should be punished as such. If we hold nothing else sacred, we should hold that the basic rights of each person should never be violated.

  10. #39
    We don't know why the police were called.

    "Man with a gun" does not warrant this type of action.

    Perhaps this guy has done something to warrant the officer to disarm him. One of the first things he said was "You're on camera". So basically, he knew there was to be a confrontation. I don't get pissy if I've done nothing wrong.

    This guy is a hit-and-runner, using our forums in the same manner he used the Ohio police officer. He's wasting our time.

    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

  11. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Sunny South Florida
    Go to you tube and search his name ... Joseph Ponikvar... he has quite a collection of videos, many trying to provoke concealed carry confrontations in the name of "rights".

    Regardless of if the police were right or wrong or his "rights" were trampled or not, I still have no respect for people who use these tactics and they do nothing to help our cause.

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