Man Open Carrying NOT robbed
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  1. #1

    Man Open Carrying NOT robbed

    From VCDL:

    Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: VCDL - Commonly Used Abbreviations
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
    Richmond Golden Market shooting last week


    ************************************************** **************************
    1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
    Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
    ************************************************** **************************

    On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
    in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
    owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
    inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

    He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
    set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

    Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
    (Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
    place one week earlier.

    Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
    I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

    We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
    hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

    Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
    videos:

    The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
    when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
    coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
    everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
    walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
    twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
    more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
    shot the store owner.

    Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

    The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
    BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
    GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

    The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
    innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
    distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
    that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
    for that GO returning fire.

    The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
    various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
    cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

    What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
    owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
    aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
    to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

    Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
    open.

    Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
    floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

    But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
    arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
    twice.

    Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
    tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
    A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
    and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
    on his rather heavy gun.

    The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
    door, but collapsed at the door.

    The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
    bad guy, called 9-1-1.

    The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

    The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
    had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
    could figure out who was who.

    What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
    owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
    all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
    let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
    this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
    shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
    teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
    the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
    customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
    display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
    killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

    A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
    none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

    --

    The GO wanted me to share the following points:

    * Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
    life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
    trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

    * Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

    * More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
    they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
    if their crimes send them to jail.

    * He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

    --

    Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

    * Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
    without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
    important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

    * Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
    just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
    fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
    you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
    in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
    store owner.

    * I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
    THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
    grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
    hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
    place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
    position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
    prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
    of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
    shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
    takes to stop such an attack quickly.

    * If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
    which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

    * This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
    ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
    course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
    guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
    my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
    magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
    idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
    before he does, he will execute you. Period.

  2.   
  3. #2
    Wow sounds like one hell of a fight. I think that is a great example of why you shouldnt be carrying a single action revolver for self defense. Ofcourse, one reason would be because the trigger broke, but this shoot-out shows that the rule of 3's (3 feet, 3 shots, 3 seconds) doesnt always apply. The GO is lucky the BG only had a revolver too. How long would it have taken him to reload one round at a time after firing all 6 under extreme stress? I'm willing to bet he may at least move to a DA revolver after this, and maybe some speed loaders.

  4. #3
    The Good Guy here does not know "give up" outstanding performance by an OC'er that saved the lives of several people including his own.

    Should the need arise, we should all hope to aquitt ourselves as well as he did. They should present him with a medal, or something....maybe a brand new 1911...or a high cap .40 cal. Sounds like he could use one in his neigborhood.

    As my Aussie friends would say "Good on ya mate".

    Steve
    Last edited by .45acp; 07-30-2009 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Spellin

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post

    ... what a dichotomy a BG who shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a teenager while doing so caring for no one but himself. And, then the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good.
    I appreciate the line: "Evil exists and so does Good." Too often all we ever hear from media is how America is just full of BAD! There are still more good people in America than there are bad!

    The take away for CCW or OC'rs, is most definitely: buy and carry a quality gun! This sort of life-and-death scenario is the very reason for being armed in the first place! You'll want the very best firearm in your hands if you ever find yourself in a firefight! And, rehearse! Practice shooting... practice drawing... be confident enough in your skill to be ready for come what may.

    The importance of good training has been discussed in a number of other posts.
    Blessed be my God, my mountain, who trains me to fight fair and well! Psalm 144 (msg)
    ...follow me at twitter.com/matthewaynelson

  6. The GO's mistake was giving a warning. "When in doubt, empty your magazine--" Murphy's Laws of Combat
    Last edited by BradAnderson; 08-14-2009 at 01:25 AM. Reason: Context

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BradAnderson View Post
    The GO's mistake was giving a warning. "When in doubt, empty your magazine--" Murphy's Laws of Combat
    +1
    No warning. The BG displayed his bad intentions by shooting the store owner. Why give this P.O.S. a warning or a chance to kill you. Stop the threat immediately. Most of us think it is cold-hearted to just outright shoot someone and will hesitate. This hesitation can get you killed. I am not a gun fanatic but I know there are times when extreme violence must be met with extreme violence. If you are not willing to do that, sell your guns.
    The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose. - Frederick Douglass

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye638 View Post
    +1
    No warning. The BG displayed his bad intentions by shooting the store owner. Why give this P.O.S. a warning or a chance to kill you. Stop the threat immediately. Most of us think it is cold-hearted to just outright shoot someone and will hesitate. This hesitation can get you killed. I am not a gun fanatic but I know there are times when extreme violence must be met with extreme violence. If you are not willing to do that, sell your guns.
    Exactly.

    "The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. "

    That's a WARNING-- and a mistake; the GO was lucky that the BG wasn't working with someone else-- and criminals usually DO work in teams.

    Another Murphy's Law of Combat, is that your enemies won't count off, so you never know where they are; the GO is just LUCKY that his warning, wasn't met with him getting shot in the back or side by an accomplice-- for all he knew, the teenage boy could have been an inside agent.

    The PROPER response for the GO, would have been to shoot the BG through the head, and then get to a defensive position (e.g. down behind the counter) and look for other BG's, while also trying to save the store-owner from dying, calling 911 etc. Usually when shooting starts, the other BG's will either shoot back or bolt-- or both.

    As for being "cold-blooded," no one with a brain would think that, once the shooting had already started-- and so it was just STUPID to pull the Lone Ranger stuff of "stop shooting, or I'll blast the gun out of your hand."
    This ain't a western!

  9. #8
    Everyone reacts differently to a situation. He tried to stop the bad guy with a threat, but was unsuccessful.
    Had that worked, he might have been able to disarm the bad guy and keep him under watch while someone else tended to the store owner and/or called 911.

    I don't think there's an easy answer in a situation like this, but I will lean toward the thoughts of: "He just killed someone! I could be next, or anyone else here could be next. I'm not going to wait, this guy is history..." Even so, I don't know if that would be my instant reaction.

    I'd say that telling someone shouldn't carry if they aren't willing to execute someone on the spot is overly harsh. This guy saved lives. The only fatality, indeed, the only casualty other than the bad guy was cause by the bad guy before any reaction could take place. I'd say that's about as good as it gets.

  10. #9
    at least no good guys were killed. and the bad guy got exactly what he deserved.
    You can have my freedom as soon as I'm done with it!!!

  11. #10
    Now i have to ask. If someone comes in and shoots someone right off the bat. Would you really have to tell them to drop it before you shot them. It seems clear that if he had shot the BG the gun battle would have not taken place?

    THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES BUT THEY'LL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM!!!!!

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