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Thread: An invitation to Axeanda45 (+ everyone else)

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Exclamation My response as such...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2beararms View Post
    And GOD said …”Let there be firearms” … and there was, and he saw that it was good.

    This discussion is on the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. My question is HOW DO YOU VIEW THIS SUPPOSED RIGHT? From other discussions, I see many want to call the 2A a God given right, but I do not see where that comes from. God never said the quote above. The right to defend oneself, a simple extension of the right to live, is indeed a God given right. The right to do it with firearms IS NOT!

    I quote a poster in another discussion who said, “If they can "vote your right to carry out of existence" it wasn't a right, or they are way out of line and we are not a free country.” And yet the RIGHT to which we address this passion was not God given, it was ‘voted’ into existence, by men, as an amendment … a correction or an afterthought, if you will, to the Constitution of the United States. There are many other amendments all of which can be said to grant rights and some HAVE BEEN VOTED OUT OF EXISTENCE, including the eighteenth PROHIBITION. Yes, many DID see the prospect of an alcohol free country as a RIGHT!

    So my question is … WHERE DOES THE INALIENABILITY OF THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS COME FROM ???

    It is NOT part of the second amendment, that is simply a codicil to a great document written by men and established as the law of the land by men, but hardly God given, inalienable, or guaranteed to stand forever.

    It is NOT my intent to desire harm to the 2A, in fact it IS my intent to protect it, but to do that, I, as a realist, feel it required to recognize that “any legal position in a democracy is only as strong as the majority that support it”, and that the 2A is nothing more than a legal position and knowing what the 2A IS, to me is the first step in protecting it.

    I am not trying to attack or undermine the viewpoint of anyone but do desire to hear the viewpoint of all.

    Specifically however, this post is an invitation to Axeanda45 to please give me your viewpoint of this and all RIGHTS as they relate to law and inalienability. I ask this because your arguments ARE persuasive, but mixed with the emotion of previous posts become a bit scattered and diluted and I, for one and perhaps the only one, would actually like to hear your compiled opinion on the subject (limited of course to what can be said in a post, as I fear I will simply get a “buy my book” response since it is obvious this is not your first time dealing with the written word).
    As far back as i can find in the Old Testament/Torah...
    "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

    It is not wrong to "smite" read that as kill a thief breaking into your house in the night. This was given under the laws of Moses BEFORE The time of Islam and the Koran. You have the responsibility to protect your home, your family and your property, according to the Bible.

    Now again in the New testament Jesus says in Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

    Jesus was trying to warns the disciples that they should be prepared for the worst.

    Luke 22:38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

    Again Jesus was making a point of showing restraint. You see he wanted his followers to be safe but he also did not need them to be armed to the teeth radicals that were feared but moreover as a group of solid citizens to be respected for their actions not feared for their thuggishness and oppressive appearance.

    Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs?

    Jesus knew that the powers that be feared free men with free will. The Romans feared an uprising and outright revolt at the hands of the Jews. Jesus was wise in his approach when he saw the high priests working in concert with the hated Romans. He realized that the politics of the day would soon bring an ultimate air of oppression to the Jewish people. The Romans were much like the Democrats in that they raised taxes for their own gain. They oppressed and controlled their subjects using fear and coercion to bring about docile behavior using laws that only benefited themselves and enjoying complete and total arrogance in how they conducted themselves.

    Now let's jump forward to the founding fathers...

    They were well aware of tyranny at the hands of an unjust government. This nation was founded by a group of folks who did not care for being told how to and where to go to church (the Church of England run by the King himself) and also put out with taxation that did not give any thing back in infrastructure or in protection from tyranny with a voice in Parliament. When the Declaration of Independence was written it was no accident that God was mentioned at nearly every turn of the wheel...

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    You see the founding fathers were all about worshiping God as they saw fit but realized that the gift of free will was what separated us from animals and that freedom of religion should be protected at all costs.

    After the revolutionary war the1st Constitutional Congress wrote the next document that would change the world...The constitution of the United States of America. It was decided that the Bill of rights should be added to protect the individual rights and freedoms of the citizenry.

    * First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, Freedom of Religion, and of assembly; right to petition,

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


    * Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    * Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.

    No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

    * Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    * Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.

    No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    * Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

    * Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.

    In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

    * Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.

    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    * Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    * Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    You see it is the Second amendment that protects the First and our right to free speech and religion.


    Now here is where it gets even more fun

    I dare you to find the separation of church and state in any official government document before world war II. Here's a hint...you can't! It was in a private letter from one of the founding fathers to a group of ministers promising them that the government would not interfere with how they worshiped. It was not until the radical left got involved that the words of a private letter became law at the hands of a federal judge without a vote from congress.

    Praise the Lord and in Jesus name AMEN!
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  2.   
  3. #22
    Very good post festus. Thanks.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  4. #23
    Under the United States Constitution, the treatment of religion by the government is broken into two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause.

    The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

    First Amendment:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


    Use of the phrase "separation of church and state"...

    The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to a group identifying themselves as the Danbury Baptists. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

    Jefferson, Thomas (1802-01-01). "Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists". U.S. Library of Congress. Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin.

    Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
    The Final Letter, as Sent

    To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    Th Jefferson
    Jan. 1. 1802.

    THE UNABRIDGED SECOND AMENDMENT
    by J. Neil Schulman:
    The Unabridged Second Amendment

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

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