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Thread: America is a Christian Nation

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    ...Why deny the existence of Jesus when His existence has been verified through writings, official documents of the time, that He not only did exist but was crucified? Historical documents, which have been authenticated and of which copies exist, should be sufficient to satisfy the more learned skeptics...
    Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: http://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christi...existed+at+all

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  3. #1022
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    Grunt, don't even bother. Once again he's dead wrong.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosreme View Post
    Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All: David Fitzgerald: 9780557709915: Amazon.com: Books
    And who were those meticulous historians who didn't write about Jesus? By name please. And what works did they write that made them the most meticulous historians? I found the complete opposite to be true when studying middle-east history. It was specifically covered.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  5. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by XD40scinNC View Post
    OG most of the turmoil in the world today you are trying to sell as biblical prophesy is not happening because the bible says so, but because of the hate and ignorance of religions. The only sure fire thing it shows is that religion is the greatest threat to civilization that exists.

    Sorry it so upsets you that your argument doesn't hold water with anyone that is not already indoctrinated into the nonsense of gods, demons, heaven, hell and all the other nonsensical trappings of your religion. Why do you expect an atheist to buy into this, when in fact you do not buy into the nonsense of other religions, and probably look at their 72 virgins and other fantasies, just like I view yours, and theirs.

    After all, you have rejected thousands of gods and religions as myth, delusions, etc., only one more to go. I'm only one small step ahead of you, as I reject all of them, vs. your 99.97%
    XD: I am not trying to "sell" Biblical prophecy. The Bible validates itself very nicely without any effort on my part. If it had been written as a book of fiction today, one could say that the foretold events mentioned by the author did not really happen. The problem is that it was written thousands of years ago and the events DID happen yet it is just as current as if it had been written today. It is impossible for me to deny the accuracy of the Bible because of the current condition and happenings in the world. It was foretold years ago! Whether my "argument" holds water to others or not doesn't upset me. I do enjoy repartee on many subjects. The give and take is stimulating. When it comes to the Bible, I don't feel anyone can best me in it's accuracy. I may not know all the content, verbatim, but I do know enough that my belief is unshakeable. The thing I find upsetting is how God is disrespected by you and others because, in my belief, all of you will one day stand before God and give account for yourself and your insults toward Him. That is not something I would wish on anyone. If, in the end, you are right about there being no God, you may be home free to whatever existence may await you. If, in the end, you are wrong......well, I will be truly sorry for your soul. We are definitely at an impasse so no use in arguing for either of us. Have a good day.

  6. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosreme View Post
    Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: http://www.amazon.com/Nailed-Christi...existed+at+all
    Councillor (we're told you're an attorney), you as well as anyone should know that a good writer, speaker, researcher, lawyer, etc. can make a convincing case for ANYTHING. I have read this book and it's atheistic biased nonsense on a variety of fronts. Why should anyone believe this authors assertions with his lack of coherent methodology and unsupported analysis? Well... they shouldn't! If one is simply looking for an atheistic set piece and an excuse to not believe in Jesus Christ then "Nailed" is the book for you.
    “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you mad.” – Aldous Huxley

  7. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    And who were those meticulous historians who didn't write about Jesus? By name please. And what works did they write that made them the most meticulous historians? I found the complete opposite to be true when studying middle-east history. It was specifically covered.
    Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much what was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).

  8. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosreme View Post
    Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much that was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).
    I graduated from both Columbia and Brown. Two of the top colleges in America. My wife graduated from Wellesley in Boston. They're all wrong and you're right? Two Ivy-league schools (Brown & Wellesley) are teaching fiction as real history? You expect that to fly?
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  9. Quote Originally Posted by MI .45 View Post
    Councillor (we're told you're an attorney), you as well as anyone should know that a good writer, speaker, researcher, lawyer, etc. can make a convincing case for ANYTHING. I have read this book and it's atheistic biased nonsense on a variety of fronts. Why should anyone believe this authors assertions with his lack of coherent methodology and unsupported analysis? Well... they shouldn't! If one is simply looking for an atheistic set piece and an excuse to not believe in Jesus Christ then "Nailed" is the book for you.
    I mentioned it as an accessible starting point, not as a footnote-laden, methodology-heavy tome. Nor did I mention it to change any minds. Not that any of that matters, as Conspicuous Christians will attack anything that undercuts their faith, and will do so by any means, legitimate or not, and they mastered the art of the disingenuous argument many centuries ago (after they stopped simply killing those out of step with orthodoxy). As we already know from their reaction to scientific treatises on such things as cosmology and evolution, they don't hesitate to formulate contrary arguments out of whole cloth and especially to sleazily attack methodology and credentials, integrity, and the non-religious mindset of the proponent. What's ironic about that latter is that they accept instantly, at face value, the reams of pseudoscientific crap put out by such scientifically laughable organizations as Answers in Genesis and act as if crackerjackbox PhDs from agenda-driven religious institutions are every bit as solid as those from respected institutions of higher learning; a pro-religiious orientation now becomes prima facie evidence of accuracy rather than bias--what a laugh.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by BC1 View Post
    I graduated from both Columbia and Brown. Two of the top colleges in America. My wife graduated from Wellesley in Boston. They're all wrong and you're right? Two Ivy-league schools (Brown & Wellesley) are teaching fiction as real history? You expect that to fly?
    Once again you misunderstand or misrepresent what I said.

    Yes, you've mentioned your academic pedigrees several times.

  11. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by nosreme View Post
    Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much what was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).
    This is just one entry I found concerning Pilate communicating to Tiberius concerning Jesus and his crucifixion. I have found others essentially saying the same thing so I will stick with this version. I put more stock in two thousand year old documents than a more modern writer. Here again, we are at an impasse so we will have to believe in our own versions of history and religion.



    Roger Pearse

    Thoughts on Antiquity, Patristics, putting things online, freedom of speech, information access, and more



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    The Letter of Pilate to Tiberius

    May 11th, 2012 by Roger Pearse

    One item that floats around the web is the Letter of Pilate to Tiberius. It appeared in English translation in the Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. 8 (here), and from there to all sorts of other places. Another translation appears online in The Lost Books of the Bible, 1926[1]

    Here is the ANF translation:


    The Letter of Pontius Pilate
    Which He Wrote to the Roman Emperor, Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar the emperor, greeting.

    Upon Jesus Christ, whose case I had dearly set forth to thee in my last, at length by the will of the people a bitter punishment has been inflicted, myself being in a sort unwilling and rather afraid. A man, by Hercules, so pious and strict, no age has ever had nor will have. But wonderful were the efforts of the people themselves, and the unanimity of all the scribes and chief men and elders, to crucify this ambassador of truth, notwithstanding that their own prophets, and after our manner the sibyls, warned them against it: and supernatural signs appeared while he was hanging, and, in the opinion of philosophers, threatened destruction to the whole world. His disciples are flourishing, in their work and the regulation of their lives not belying their master; yea, in his name most beneficent. Had I not been afraid of the rising of a sedition among the people, who were just on the point of breaking out, perhaps this man would still have been alive to us; although, urged more by fidelity to thy dignity than induced by my own wishes, I did not according to my strength resist that innocent blood free from the whole charge brought against it, but unjustly, through the malignity of men, should be sold and suffer, yet, as the Scriptures signify, to their own destruction. Farewell, 28th March.

    So what is this item? The ANF introductory notice is very unhelpful. New Testament Apocrypha[2] does not mention it at all. Nor does a Google Books search produce much.

    Fortunately I have on my shelves a copy of J. K. Elliot’s The Apocryphal New Testament[3] and this has a section on the apocryphal Pilate literature. Our item appears on p.206-8.

    The work is written in renaissance Latin, probably in the 16th century.[4] The letter cannot be traced any earlier than the renaissance,[5]. It was composed in Latin[6].

    Tischendorf printed the Latin text,[7] based on four witnesses, which he obtained from earlier publications:

    •Chas. — the text printed by Chassanaeus in part 4 of his catalogi gloriae mundi, 1571.


    •Flor. — the text printed by Florentinius in Martyrolog. vet. Hieronymi, p.113 (and reprinted by Fabricius).


    •Bodl. — the text printed by Abrah. Gronovius in the preface to his edition of the works of Tacitus in 1721, from an ms. or mss. of the works of Tacitus from the Bodleian library in Oxford.


    •Ven. — the text which Tischendorf himself obtained from a manuscript in Venice, Marcianus class. X. num. CXXXIV. The ms. is 16th century.


    The text had previously been edited by Fabricius[8], Thilo[9], and Giles[10].

    Note that the Letters of Pilate and Herod exist in a Syriac version of the 6-7th century,[11], followed by that of Walker in the ANF in 1870.[13] Another translation appeared in 1915 from A. Westcott.[14]

    A Google search reveals an “epistola Pilati” is contained in the British Library ms. Cotton Titus D. xix, on f.88-89, but this is probably the epistola Pilati ad Claudium.[15]

    There is also a Letter of Tiberius to Pilate, in Greek.[16] This also is a late production. I am not aware of the existence of a translation, but it takes an unfavourable view of Pilate and alludes to a journey by Mary Magdalene to Rome to accuse Pilate.

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