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Thread: America is a Christian Nation

  1. #121
    This is a tough thread to jump into at this time, given its length, but here I go...
    It's been over 2000 years and little has changed. Some folks have the perfect reasons to believe, and some folks have the perfect reasons to not believe.
    As a Christian, I do not believe that the United States is a religious, or Christian nation, in the same sense that other nations are religioius/Muslim nations (or so they say). The Holy Roman Empire we are not!!! We have nothing today that is close (or maybe large enough) to a church governmental system that was started and sucessfully carried out by folks like John Calvin. I think the Christian philosophy that our nation is founded on really sets the best framework to live by. It's philosophy is principled even if one disagrees with the religious aspect of it, i.e. God given rights. But what would the opposite or converse be? Maybe something worse that we think. It does allow for differing opinions whether it's governmental ideology or religious preference. Of course, there will be people in any system that will mess up that system. No system of government or even church/religious government is immune from humanity's failings.
    I think this says a lot about Biblical truths in that many of the issues facing humanity have remained the same throughout history, minus a few different window dressings to change the flavorings of some of the same age old issues.
    I'm sure I missed a good point of two here, but I just wanted to throw my quick opinon into the mix.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    I, like Piece Corps ,have come to the point where it is time to give those that mock God over to their own devices as
    Romans puts it so just a couple of verses then time to let the heathen rage and shake the dust of my feet.

    Mark 6:11 (King James Version)

    11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city

    Matthew 7:6 (King James Version)

    6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
    I 3rd that can we all have an AMEN and for those who do not use AMEN say what ever you say to something that comes to an end.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by father-of-three View Post
    I think the Christian philosophy that our nation is founded on really sets the best framework to live by. It's philosophy is principled even if one disagrees with the religious aspect of it, i.e. God given rights. But what would the opposite or converse be? Maybe something worse that we think.
    I believe that the Book of Daniel & the Book of Revelation are the best reference in answer to that question.
    In America today, it's considered worse to judge evil than to do evil. Never let these Christophobic Liberal Progressive Purveyors of Infanticide & Homosexual Perversion who always manipulate truth to be hate speech set the terms in a debate.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    wait... you're saying that I am not reflecting accurate science of the causes of crime, but you say its because people dont believe in god? Then you state that because some community workers say that kids are getting into gangs in england, because they're pagan? then its all downhill for us?

    Since when did science and god cooexist peacefully? (this is a pretty general statement, but I'm using it to proove a point). Since religion was formed it has always had a hatred for science. Anything that prooved their faith wrong, scared them. I can get some examples for you if you need it.

    But, instead you are insiting to blame paganism for socities problems? Well, maybe in a sense that paganism is more of a religion based on nature and natural things that occur all around us. Instead of christianity that believes in one god that will forgive all your sins, no matter how bad you screw up nature. And, since paganism is much older than christianity, I can see how christians would want to push out paganism.

    Kids getting into organized crime/gangs has been happening forever. Not just recently in england, and not just black kids. And instead of blaming a lack of god, how about just blaming society in general? The way that we have been forced into a consumer mindset, where we have to buy every new and shiney thing that is advertised on TV. So now not only the father has to work, but so does the mother, just to get the things they WANT. Now that leaves jr. on his/her own to raise themselves, and to find someway to entertain themselves. And, now the kid still sees the crap on tv that they want, so they have to find a way to get that. And a normal job that they could get at their age, education level, will not pay enough for them to buy what they want. So they turn to organized crime, or unorganized crime ... Of course lets not forget about all of the hollywood influences that portrait the black gang banging/pimp type character as being ultra cool and having lots of money, and girls hanging off of them... who wouldnt want that lifestyle?
    Dear Onlinedad,

    Not sure that you read the article. The moral decline and breakdown especially at the family level is a valid scientific observation and is a direct causative factor of gangs and youth crime. I will leave you to your take on that issue, but I could find dozens of articles pointing to that scientific observation. When a society throws away the virtues and values of Christianity and let all do what feels good and looks right in their own eyes, history shows shows this many times over as well as right before our eyes that that nation will sink to the lowest depths. If you choose to not see it, so be it. As far as wanting the lifestyle of a pimp, are you serious? No thanks, I will pass on that, doesn't look so cool to me. Here take a look at how cool this pimp is:

    The Smoking Gun Presents ? Pimp Slapped by Karate Teacher ? truTV.com on Yahoo!7 Video

  6. Quote Originally Posted by father-of-three View Post
    This is a tough thread to jump into at this time, given its length, but here I go...
    It's been over 2000 years and little has changed. Some folks have the perfect reasons to believe, and some folks have the perfect reasons to not believe.
    As a Christian, I do not believe that the United States is a religious, or Christian nation, in the same sense that other nations are religioius/Muslim nations (or so they say). The Holy Roman Empire we are not!!! We have nothing today that is close (or maybe large enough) to a church governmental system that was started and sucessfully carried out by folks like John Calvin. I think the Christian philosophy that our nation is founded on really sets the best framework to live by. It's philosophy is principled even if one disagrees with the religious aspect of it, i.e. God given rights. But what would the opposite or converse be? Maybe something worse that we think. It does allow for differing opinions whether it's governmental ideology or religious preference. Of course, there will be people in any system that will mess up that system. No system of government or even church/religious government is immune from humanity's failings.
    I think this says a lot about Biblical truths in that many of the issues facing humanity have remained the same throughout history, minus a few different window dressings to change the flavorings of some of the same age old issues.
    I'm sure I missed a good point of two here, but I just wanted to throw my quick opinon into the mix.
    No claims of a Christian theocracy here, just simple historical fact that America was not only settled as a Christian enclave, but it was founded on Christian principles after our independence. The constitution as originally written and intended was perfectly compatible with a Christian people, it is only today and since Engel vs Vitale that separation of church and state has taken a new meaning to exclude the influence of Christianity over our government. Anyone old enough to remember prayer and Scripture reading in public schools can attest to this established fact. Our society continued as a Christian nation until the 1960's in very objective measures. It is interesting how even the history of our Christian heritage is distasteful to those that oppose Christianity. Yes, we were a Christian nation.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    No claims of a Christian theocracy here, just simple historical fact that America was not only settled as a Christian enclave, but it was founded on Christian principles after our independence. The constitution as originally written and intended was perfectly compatible with a Christian people, it is only today and since Engel vs Vitale that separation of church and state has taken a new meaning to exclude the influence of Christianity over our government. Anyone old enough to remember prayer and Scripture reading in public schools can attest to this established fact. Our society continued as a Christian nation until the 1960's in very objective measures. It is interesting how even the history of our Christian heritage is distasteful to those that oppose Christianity. Yes, we were a Christian nation.
    I agree with your point.

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Anyone old enough to remember prayer and Scripture reading in public schools can attest to this established fact. Our society continued as a Christian nation until the 1960's in very objective measures. It is interesting how even the history of our Christian heritage is distasteful to those that oppose Christianity. Yes, we were a Christian nation.
    I can attest to that fact, and it was in California, believe it or not.
    In America today, it's considered worse to judge evil than to do evil. Never let these Christophobic Liberal Progressive Purveyors of Infanticide & Homosexual Perversion who always manipulate truth to be hate speech set the terms in a debate.

  9. #128
    Alaska:

    Here are some more examples of how religion tries to ignore/suppress/etc science... You already mentioned Galileo, and the churches fight to continue to believe the world was flat.

    How about the theories of Darwin, and evolution? This extremely contends with your creationism belief

    The book of Ezekiel speaks of Jerusalem as in the middle of the earth, and all other parts of the world as set around the holy city. Throughout the ``ages of faith'' this was very generally accepted as a direct revelation from the Almighty regarding the earth's form. You still do believe this dont you? Otherwise... that would be against gods word...

    Or how about when the thought of people living on the oposite side of the world came up? (this was a long ass time ago... but goes to show to the history of the religious disbelief of scientific theories). Pope Zachary, as the infallible teacher of Christendom, made a strong response to the doctrine of antipodes. He cited passages from the book of Job and the Wisdom of Solomon against the doctrine of the antipodes; he declared it ``perverse, iniquitous, and against Virgil's own soul,'' (Virgil was a bishop, Virgil of Salzburg, rebrought up the doctrine in eighth century)

    And from a protestant history book:In the year 1553 Michael Servetus was on trial for his life at Geneva on the charge of Arianism. Servetus had rendered many services to scientific truth, and one of these was an edition of Ptolemy's Geography, in which Judea was spoken of, not as ``a land flowing with milk and honey,'' but, in strict accordance with the truth, as, in the main, meagre, barren, and inhospitable. In his trial this simple statement of geographical fact was used against him by his arch-enemy John Calvin with fearful power. In vain did Servetus plead that he had simply drawn the words from a previous edition of Ptolemy; in vain did he declare that this statement was a simple geographical truth of which there were ample proofs: it was answered that such language ``necessarily inculpated Moses, and grievously outraged the Holy Ghost.''

    And to shorten things up, how about a modern day stance of religion against stem cell research? You can't have man playing god... even though man might find some more cool **** to help people.

    Now I know your argument is going to be something like, "no that was the catholic church, not us we would never..." But really? isn't christianity an offshoot of catholism (in its basic premise?) just with a few different traditions? Still follow the same book, still pray to the same one god. And, in which case doesn't christianity have many offshoots of its own? Each of the offshoots (from your own) each believing that they are better and more right than the last...


    Now to switch gears a bit and go back to the "pimp" example, just because you have a video of a real life pimp getting what he deserves doesn't change the light in which hollywood paints that way of life. Or how the music industry promotes the same phylosiphies through the hiphop genre. The do whatever it takes to make a name/money/etc for yourself attitude. And I can vaguely remember some of those same movies that still have the bad guy that is doing the bad "gangster" stuff, going to church (not always but it does happen), so to blame evil deeds by your claim of godlessness is quite unfounded. With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

  10. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Piece Corps View Post
    You beat me to Matt 7, HK4U. It is evident that these people do not wish to just have Christianity not mentioned in government, but do not wish to hear it mentioned in public. They are angered by roadside crosses honoring those loved ones who died. They are angered by church steeples, with the cross at the top. They are angered that, in the middle of a desert, a small cross sitting on a small hill dedicated to those who served in defense of our country has to be looked at while driving by. They are angered by crosses in cemeteries. They are angered by Christmas trees, creche scenes, etc. IOW, they are angered that they have to live with Christians who openly profess their faith. It would be better if Christians just shut up and went away. But the real reason is that they are convicted. They cannot live in abortion, prostitution, pornography, corruption and other crimes as long as there is someone, somewhere, who believes in an absolute truth, a Higher Authority, as it were. There is no God, only themselves.

    And that is truly sad. And that's all I have to say about that. No more posts in this thread.

    well the only thing that you have right here is that I do not want to have any religion involved with gov't. If you want to have public speakers, or road signs or whatever else, that does not anger me. I am not the one trying to repress your beliefs. I just dont want you to constantly be preaching in my face. You can have your opinions just as well as I can have mine. But, for you to say I'm wrong, and for you to believe you are better than everyone else, just because you believe in one god, is where I start to get angered. We are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    Alaska:

    Here are some more examples of how religion tries to ignore/suppress/etc science... You already mentioned Galileo, and the churches fight to continue to believe the world was flat.

    How about the theories of Darwin, and evolution? This extremely contends with your creationism belief

    The book of Ezekiel speaks of Jerusalem as in the middle of the earth, and all other parts of the world as set around the holy city. Throughout the ``ages of faith'' this was very generally accepted as a direct revelation from the Almighty regarding the earth's form. You still do believe this dont you? Otherwise... that would be against gods word...

    Or how about when the thought of people living on the oposite side of the world came up? (this was a long ass time ago... but goes to show to the history of the religious disbelief of scientific theories). Pope Zachary, as the infallible teacher of Christendom, made a strong response to the doctrine of antipodes. He cited passages from the book of Job and the Wisdom of Solomon against the doctrine of the antipodes; he declared it ``perverse, iniquitous, and against Virgil's own soul,'' (Virgil was a bishop, Virgil of Salzburg, rebrought up the doctrine in eighth century)

    And from a protestant history book:In the year 1553 Michael Servetus was on trial for his life at Geneva on the charge of Arianism. Servetus had rendered many services to scientific truth, and one of these was an edition of Ptolemy's Geography, in which Judea was spoken of, not as ``a land flowing with milk and honey,'' but, in strict accordance with the truth, as, in the main, meagre, barren, and inhospitable. In his trial this simple statement of geographical fact was used against him by his arch-enemy John Calvin with fearful power. In vain did Servetus plead that he had simply drawn the words from a previous edition of Ptolemy; in vain did he declare that this statement was a simple geographical truth of which there were ample proofs: it was answered that such language ``necessarily inculpated Moses, and grievously outraged the Holy Ghost.''

    And to shorten things up, how about a modern day stance of religion against stem cell research? You can't have man playing god... even though man might find some more cool **** to help people.

    Now I know your argument is going to be something like, "no that was the catholic church, not us we would never..." But really? isn't christianity an offshoot of catholism (in its basic premise?) just with a few different traditions? Still follow the same book, still pray to the same one god. And, in which case doesn't christianity have many offshoots of its own? Each of the offshoots (from your own) each believing that they are better and more right than the last...


    Now to switch gears a bit and go back to the "pimp" example, just because you have a video of a real life pimp getting what he deserves doesn't change the light in which hollywood paints that way of life. Or how the music industry promotes the same phylosiphies through the hiphop genre. The do whatever it takes to make a name/money/etc for yourself attitude. And I can vaguely remember some of those same movies that still have the bad guy that is doing the bad "gangster" stuff, going to church (not always but it does happen), so to blame evil deeds by your claim of godlessness is quite unfounded. With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
    Dear Onlinedad, thank you for a reasoned response even though I do not agree with you on these points, I do appreciate a forum where we can discuss our different views without insulting each other's character.

    First, yes, you need to understand that Calvin burned born again Christian, anabaptists, at the stake, as did Luther in Germany and of course the Catholics all over the world including here in North America with their own version of the inquisition as well. If you have a state run religion burning the true Christians, what testimony is that? So what part of the teachings of Jesus tells us to kill anyone? You won't find it anywhere. So, we agree with the abuses of religion, no matter where it is found. What you do not grasp is that a born again Christian in all literal truth has a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe. That is really what being born again is all about. He is real and it is His desire to fellowship with all men everywhere. The partition of sin is what keeps Him from that. So yes, every example you have brought me is of state run religions so far that persecuted many people against the teachings of the Bible.

    By the way, Arianism is today known as Jehovah's Witnesses: It is indeed a heresy, but we are told to be separate from heretics in the NT, not to kill them or persecute them.

    The Watchman Expositor: Modern Day Arians - Who Are They?

    Now, evolution, the difficulty most people don't understand with evolution is it is not based on the type of scientific facts that most people think it is. We have never observed a creature turn into another kind of creature. Perhaps you have heard of Stephen J. Gould and his punctuated equilibrium hypothesis where he BELIEVED evolution happens quickly in the periphery of a breeding population where local isolation occurs. This was in part to Haldane's Dilemma and the "cost" of gene substitution requiring those without the new modification to die so that the new gene can populate the species. Gould overcame this by placing his theory in the periphery of the breeding population. However, he further developed the punctuated part of his theory because there is absolutely no evidence that slow gradual change leads to one kind of animal from another kind. If you read his works, you will find that he completely dismisses the so called tree of life of Darwin with slow gradual changes as was his theory because we just don't see that in the fossil record. Instead, we see creatures who remain the same throughout the fossil record. Read his books for more info on this. Ultimately, his theory was based on the fact that we don't have the evidence for slow gradual change, so IT HAD to happen fast. Once again, the lack of evidence is evidence. That my friend is NOT science, it is a philosophy and in fact it goes so far as to become a religion based on beliefs instead of facts. I could go on, but will forego that at this time. Look into it for yourself. No need to take my word for it, but that is what you shall find when you look at it.

    As far as the Ezekiel quote you are referring to, do you have the verse? In a very real sense, Ezekiel is describing in the last 8 chapters the condition of the world during the millenium when Jesus will reign on earth in person and absolutely, Jerusalem will be the center of life on earth at that time. However, I would need to see the context of the statement to give a real answer to your question.

    As far as folks on the other side of the world, in Luke chapter 17. speaking of the rapture it states that at the same time those in bed, one will be taken, one left, one in the field. That is perfectly in accord with one side of the earth in darkness and the other in light at the moment of the rapture. No problem with folks around the circle of the earth, that was from Isaiah 700 years before Christ.

    Pope Zachary is firs of all not infallible and he has absolutely nothing to do with my Christianity. Why do you continue to bring up the enemies of God's word as an example of why God's word is unreliable. That is not logical my friend.

    I will leave the pimp question alone, it is has no appeal to the majority of people in this world even if some are drawn to a life of crime. If you believe that is an ideal, so be it. Not mine at all and you miss the point of the breakdown of the family through the loss of Christian principles in this country. The virtue of a pimp as the new pagan standard speaks for itself.

    Sorry, got to go now, more later otherwise the little woman won't be happy.

    CHeers

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